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HANSARDCriminal Justice Bill (Fifth sitting)The fine city of Stockton. I thank the shadow Minister for the thoughtful, reasonable tone that he adopted in discussing the amendments and in his opening remarks. I am sure that…11 Jan 2024HANSARDCriminal Justice Bill (Sixth sitting)On the sale, it could be either an individual who makes a sale and/or the business. A defence of coercion is available generally, however—I am not sure whether it is in common or…11 Jan 2024HANSARDCriminal Justice Bill (Fifth sitting)I am sure it is welcome in Stockton as well—11 Jan 2024HANSARDCriminal Justice Bill (Sixth sitting)On a point of order, Ms Bardell. First, it is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship. Secondly, for the record, I just clarify that the maximum sentence for a possession…11 Jan 2024HANSARDCriminal Justice Bill (Fifth sitting)Thank you, Dame Angela; you were extremely tolerant, but I could sense the frostiness beginning to build without even looking at you. The shadow Minister, the hon. Member for…11 Jan 2024HANSARDCriminal Justice Bill (Fifth sitting)Yes. There is probably another time to debate this point, and perhaps now is a good moment to give way to the hon. Member for Birmingham, Yardley.11 Jan 2024HANSARDCriminal Justice Bill (Fifth sitting)We have already discussed that technological change can be very rapid, and that criminals, including fraudsters, are quite technologically literate and very often embrace emerging…11 Jan 2024HANSARDCriminal Justice Bill (Fifth sitting)I am grateful to the shadow Minister for his question. I point to the way the clause is constructed. Clause 8(2) is narrowly defined, in that is says: “An article may be specified…11 Jan 2024HANSARDCriminal Justice Bill (Fifth sitting)Let me respond to one or two of the issues that the shadow Minister quite reasonably raised. Fraud makes up about 40% of all criminal offences—the figure I have in my mind is 41%.…11 Jan 2024HANSARDCriminal Justice Bill (Fifth sitting)The hon. Member raises a concern that inventive criminals might exploit the defences we set out in clause 5(3), on lines 37 to 40 at the bottom of page 3, which he was quoting…11 Jan 2024HANSARDCriminal Justice Bill (Fifth sitting)I will in a moment. When we compare the crime figures since 2016, we see that overall crime has fallen. For example, overall crime including fraud and computer misuse has fallen…11 Jan 2024HANSARDCriminal Justice Bill (Fifth sitting)It is not reliant on that. It is simply that the data does not exist. The chief inspector of constabulary Andy Cooke said in his state of policing report last June that we are…11 Jan 2024HANSARDCriminal Justice Bill (Fifth sitting)In a moment. Bicycle theft is down by 39%, vehicle crime by about 50%, and violent crime by around 50%. It is not the case that some sort of artifice going on and that if we added…11 Jan 2024HANSARDCriminal Justice Bill (Fifth sitting)That is only part of the circumscription, because prior to that the clause says, “being used for a purpose connected with fraud”. If we think about that as a Venn diagram, the…11 Jan 2024HANSARDCriminal Justice Bill (Fifth sitting)I can certainly confirm that where someone possesses technology for a good and legitimate reason, by definition it would not be getting used for a purpose connected with fraud. I…11 Jan 2024HANSARDCriminal Justice Bill (Fifth sitting)It may be helpful to clarify the two different kinds of provisions that apply; the shadow Minister was conflating the two slightly. The first area, the one that we are debating,…11 Jan 2024HANSARDCriminal Justice Bill (Fifth sitting)That sort of interception and insertion is not addressed by this clause, which is about SIM farms and the almost industrial-scale transmission of thousands of messages. What the…11 Jan 2024HANSARDCriminal Justice Bill (Fifth sitting)In that case, I shall leave my remarks there.11 Jan 2024HANSARDCriminal Justice Bill (Fifth sitting)As Members will be aware, criminals often use telecommunications networks to target people to try and defraud them, for example with scam texts and scam calls. In fact, the…11 Jan 2024HANSARDCriminal Justice Bill (Fifth sitting)It is a huge pleasure to serve under your chairmanship once again, Dame Angela, as it will be in the Committee’s sittings in coming days. I will not try to respond to the shadow…11 Jan 2024