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HANSARDPublic Authorities (Fraud, Error and Recovery) BillI am sorry to interrupt—I never get to say that anymore. I thought it might be helpful for the Committee if I clarified. The noble Lord, Lord Vaux, referred to Clause 89; that…18 Jun 2025HANSARDPublic Authorities (Fraud, Error and Recovery) BillI am grateful to all noble Lords. The noble Viscount just described these amendments as thoughtful and necessary. I think that they are characteristically thoughtful, but I hope…16 Jun 2025HANSARDPublic Authorities (Fraud, Error and Recovery) BillMy Lords, I thank all noble Lords who have contributed to this short debate and I welcome the Committee to Part 2 of the PAFER Bill. We are on to the DWP and it will be a joy to…16 Jun 2025HANSARDPublic Authorities (Fraud, Error and Recovery) BillI see where the noble Lord is going with this and I am happy to pick up the conversation outside. I do not think that the distinction is big enough for it to be a problem, because…16 Jun 2025HANSARDPublic Authorities (Fraud, Error and Recovery) BillObviously, I am not going to comment on individual cases. As the noble Baroness will be aware, there is an inquiry going on into the carer’s allowance on which we hope to report…16 Jun 2025HANSARDPublic Authorities (Fraud, Error and Recovery) BillI have never seen a flow chart, but some of these powers are not necessarily part of the same process, so they would not necessarily appear on the same piece of paper. But if I…16 Jun 2025HANSARDPublic Authorities (Fraud, Error and Recovery) BillMy Lords, I am grateful to noble Lords who spoke on this. I promise not to speak for long on this but, since it is the first time we have discussed the eligibility verification…16 Jun 2025HANSARDPublic Authorities (Fraud, Error and Recovery) BillMy Lords, I am grateful to the noble Baroness for giving me the opportunity to recover my voice and to say that not only will we not do it but the Bill says explicitly that the…16 Jun 2025HANSARDPublic Authorities (Fraud, Error and Recovery) BillI am grateful. The noble Viscount is quite right: there is some fraud in the state pension. It was a judgment about proportion, having compared the size and value of the case…16 Jun 2025HANSARDPublic Authorities (Fraud, Error and Recovery) BillI think that we are going to repeat ourselves at each other. This is essentially a data-requiring measure—it is a data push. The data is coming across to DWP, and that data will…16 Jun 2025HANSARDPublic Authorities (Fraud, Error and Recovery) BillI think that we are talking at cross-purposes here. The information will be sent across to DWP, and DWP will take information on an individual and, if there is a signal that an…16 Jun 2025HANSARDPublic Authorities (Fraud, Error and Recovery) BillMy Lords, I am not a flow chart gal, but if anyone is capable of turning this into a useful flow chart, I shall have a look into it. I fully accept, being an observant person,…16 Jun 2025HANSARDPublic Authorities (Fraud, Error and Recovery) BillLet me deal with the noble Lord first, because that will be quick and I am conscious of the time—I have already gone over the 20 minutes. The DWP will tell the banks, “We have a…16 Jun 2025HANSARDPublic Authorities (Fraud, Error and Recovery) BillIn as much as we will say to the banks that we would like them to look at the accounts into which we pay benefits and will give them the reference numbers. Clearly, it is up to…16 Jun 2025HANSARDPublic Authorities (Fraud, Error and Recovery) BillMy Lords, I am grateful to all noble Lords who have spoken on this group of amendments. Amendments 81 and 91 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Vaux, speak to the costs that…16 Jun 2025HANSARDPublic Authorities (Fraud, Error and Recovery) BillMy Lords, I am grateful to all the noble Lords for their comments. Amendment 82, tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Fox, would require the Secretary of State to make public the…16 Jun 2025HANSARDPublic Authorities (Fraud, Error and Recovery) BillAn EVN can be used only in relation to the bank account into which the benefit is paid. Therefore, that would be a specific bank account in a specific bank. Of course, the DWP’s…16 Jun 2025HANSARDPublic Authorities (Fraud, Error and Recovery) BillExactly.16 Jun 2025HANSARDPublic Authorities (Fraud, Error and Recovery) BillJust to be clear, this measure is attacking both fraud and error. It looks at overpayments, whatever the source. It is simply one tool among many that is available to the DWP and…16 Jun 2025HANSARDPublic Authorities (Fraud, Error and Recovery) BillTo be clear, their bank details cannot be accessed by the DWP under this measure; their bank details can be accessed by the DWP under its other powers. I know that the noble Lord…16 Jun 2025