Scottish legislative consent correspondence published, Northern Ireland and Welsh legislative consent sought. Relevant documents: 32nd and 36th Reports from the Delegated Powers Committee, 12th Report from the Constitution Committee, Report from the Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill Committee.
I realise that your Lordships wish to get on to the substance of the Bill, and the points I am about to raise are specifically on the Bill and will have an impact on the groupings we are about to debate. I notified the Chief Whip, the clerks and the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer, of my intention to raise them.
The noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer, explained in his letter this week that he recognises the concerns raised about independent advocates and that following discussions with the sponsor in the other place and their amendments, he has tabled changes. I am raising this now because of the sense of frustration that we are not getting answers to the amendments we are tabling in good faith. I hope that the noble and learned Lord will be able to answer these questions, so that we can move with a bit more pace.
I would like to probe how the changes the noble and learned Lord has suggested relate to what was agreed in the other place. The amendments in the Commons were understood to introduce independent advocates as a mandatory safeguard. This is an area that many of us are concerned about, reflecting the fact that the individuals in scope may have substantial difficulty understanding the process or communicating their wishes. Under the noble and learned Lord’s amendments, a person is treated as having an independent advocate, even if the advocate is not present or involved in the decision-making process. The amendments do not require an advocate to be present when the co-ordinating or independent doctor meets with the patient, nor when the panel considers the case. Advocacy is therefore satisfied by instruction alone rather than active participation. In addition, advocacy is made conditional on request. The preliminary discussion may proceed without an advocate, and a qualifying person may refuse one.
Could the noble and learned Lord please explain whether he considers that this framework preserves the substance of the Commons concession, or whether he accepts that it represents a shift away from a mandatory safeguard towards a more discretionary model? In particular, how does he address the concern that people who qualify precisely because they struggle to understand are required, unaided, to decide whether to waive one of the Bill’s central protections at the very outset of the process?
These questions relate to a detailed amendment to Clause 22 that I tabled yesterday, which provides for an independent advocate to help people who need assistance. I will read the questions the noble Baroness has given me—she did not give me notice of them, and I make no complaint about that at all—but the appropriate place to deal with them is when we get to the amendments relating to Clause 22.
I am grateful to the noble Lords, Lord Harper and Lord Empey, for signing this amendment. I will also speak to my Amendment 65 and consider an amendment put forward by the shadow Front Bench.
It is disappointing that the Justice Minister is not in her place on the Front Bench today, because in discussing these amendments I want to consider the important issue of assessing whether someone has capacity. The MoJ is responsible for that, and for several of the other matters I wish to speak on. We are only at Clause 1(3), but this is a key element to consider carefully: where do all these issues have to happen, and do they have to happen face to face?
As the Bill reads currently, it suggests that only the initial request for assistance, the first declaration, the doctor’s assessment and the second doctor’s assessment, and then the second declaration, have to happen while the person making all these requests is in the country. No other part of the Bill, including preliminary discussions and the act itself—all these other things—has to happen in this country; the person does not have to be here.
I think I have made it clear in a series of amendments that I have brought to the Committee that my concern is how this becomes something that is decided not just on paper. There should be real interaction, and I am trying to understand how the Bill will work in practice. That is why I have asked a series of questions on whether or not the terminally ill person making the request has to be in the country. We should get into other aspects, such as whether the panel has to be here.
We had a debate earlier in Committee, during which I made a clumsy attempt to make sure people had to be in this country. As I said, you can be ordinarily resident in more than one country at the same time. I want to continue to focus on this being a person-based process—I do not like using the term “patient-based process”, as I do not consider this to be a health treatment—and a lot of that is about where somebody is and whether there is a face-to-face link.
My Lords, I have put my name to some of these amendments. In the spirit of what the Chief Whip said, I will not repeat what the noble Baroness, Lady Coffey, said, but I gently remind the Committee that this Private Member’s Bill is not normal, in so far as most Private Member’s Bills are five, six, seven or eight pages. This one is 51 pages, with 59 clauses. It is a very different animal from what we are used to.
I think the amendments in this group have been tabled because, in many respects, this aspect of the process is deeply disturbing. We are talking about life and death here; we are talking about making assessments of a person who is making an application for an assisted death. Noble Lords will be aware that, on 29 October, in the Select Committee, Professor Martin J Vernon, chair of the British Geriatrics Society’s ethics and law special interest group, said:
“Assessing somebody remotely, digitally, without a face-to-face assessment, particularly if they have complex health and social care needs, is nigh-on impossible”.
I would have thought that, to assess somebody’s state of mind and to have any sense of judging whether they are being coerced or not, one of the most obvious things is to see them in front of you and get the feel for that. How can a psychiatrist judge this?
The other point I would make is about the practicalities. Depending on where someone is in this country, they may or may not have the equipment or the capacity to use it; signals drop off. Inevitably, if somebody is in a frail and unstable condition, there will have to be other people present to operate this. Does that mean that a team from the hospital would have to go out to some remote location—or, even worse, are we doing stuff on the phone? Can you imagine how people would react? “Dial-a-death” would be the sort of way that people would describe it.
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I find it exceptionally objectionable that, for somebody in those conditions, the state could effectively provide a service to assist them to kill themselves over the phone. That is what we are talking about here. It is conceivable, I suppose, that there could be special circumstances for trying to assess people remotely but, as with everything else in this Bill, if we had worked this thing out properly, we would have covered a lot of this. I think this part of the Bill is fundamentally unsafe. Assessing somebody’s state of mind and what their settled will is would be difficult for a team to do without seeing them face to face, in the room or in their home. We use video links for legal proceedings, but there is a big difference between somebody who has been held on remand for robbery appearing in court through video and somebody who is seeking assistance to end their life. We are not talking about things in the same sphere of influence or effect at all.
I therefore have to say that I am very unhappy about the proposals in the Bill. I have put my name to some of these amendments and support the comments made by the noble Baroness, Lady Coffey.
My Lords, I will speak to my Amendment 376. It is a pleasure to follow the noble Lord, Lord Empey. Last Friday, like many of your Lordships, I sat here all day and did not say a word. My amendment was in the following group, but sadly we did not get to it. However, there was an excellent discussion, and I want to pay tribute to some of the contributors: my noble friend Lord Deben, the noble Lord, Lord Mawson, and indeed the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer.
The noble and learned Lord said something that rang a bell; he referred to studied diligence, and how healthcare professionals and the whole system will study how best to conduct these assessments. When he said “studied diligence”, it reminded me of some experiences that I had as a Member of Parliament in helping people in very distressing circumstances with the healthcare of loved ones and trying to navigate the system. The thing that struck me was studied neglect. Studied neglect is quite difficult to detect, because it is not always obvious.
Many of us in this House have a routine, which is what makes us get up every day, and as you get older, that routine becomes very important. You have a good night’s sleep, you wake up in the morning, you shower, you clean your teeth, you exercise and you go to work, or to functions in the community. You eat well—you eat healthily. You can lead a normal life, as many of us do in this House, but something may happen to you—you may slip, trip and fall, and you may find yourself in hospital. That is when things can go wrong, because you are out of that routine of a good night’s sleep and getting up in the morning. For every week that you lie in bed, you lose 10% of your muscle strength. You do not get up, you do not do your routine, you do not shower and you do not clean your teeth. Things start happening to you, and you can go downhill very quickly.
Those things can happen through daily life—but the thing that really concerns me about this Bill, and the reason why I tabled this particular amendment insisting on face-to-face diagnosis from the healthcare professionals having to make this decision, is based on my experience as an MP. Close family and friends can have a malign influence by slowly but surely—this is why I referred to it as studied neglect—not encouraging a loved one to get out of bed in the morning, so that routine declines. They stop showering in the morning; they do not go for their manicure or pedicure or to get their hair done, and they start to decline. People who we always regard as very smart for their age can decline very quickly. The loved ones around them can engineer that, so that when social workers and healthcare professionals meet those people, it is not obvious what is happening. They are not sleeping properly, not looking after themselves properly and not eating properly, and therefore they decline. Nutrition is very important. You also have medication, and there can be no clear care plan; as one grows older, we take lots more medication, and that medication can be increased when it does not need to be increased or indeed not given at all.
My Lords, I will speak to my Amendment 320B and three others in my name in this group. The first clinical gateway in this Bill is the most important moment any of us will ever legislate for: the moment a doctor begins the process that can lead to a life being ended. That gateway must be treated with the utmost care; it should not be reduced to a convenience-driven video call.
My amendment is simple and proportionate: it creates a presumption that the co-ordinating doctor’s first assessment takes place in person, and it asks only that, if the presumption is displaced, the doctor records why an in-person meeting was not possible for medical reasons. That is not micromanagement; it is common sense. It is the minimum standard of human contact that we should expect before opening a pathway that is irreversible.
Why does this matter? First, capacity and voluntariness are relational judgments. Clinicians do not assess capacity from words alone: they read people’s faces; they notice the hesitation; they observe the environment and see who else is present. They pick up the small, telling signs of distress or coercion that a screen can hide: a hand hovering off the camera, a whispered instruction, a look that does not match the words. Remote consultations blunt those senses. If we are serious about preventing coercion, the law should make face to face the default, not the exception.
Secondly, this is a narrow safeguard, not a prohibition. The amendment allows remote assessment where it is genuinely impossible for medical reasons. It recognises that there will be rare cases where a patient is too frail to be seen in person; in those cases, the co-ordinating doctor must set out the reasons. That requirement creates an audit trail and accountability. It deters the normalisation of remote practice for administrative convenience and gives panels, the commissioner and, if necessary, later reviewers, a clear record of why the presumption was set aside.
My Lords, I assure the noble Baroness, Lady Coffey, that this issue will never be a routine tick-box exercise. Being in Tenerife rather than Torbay is the choice of the patient. If they want to spend that time there before they return to the UK and die, it is not our choice. Videos allow patients and their families to be together for those assessments. There is no ethical or clinical reason why an assisted dying request, or aspects of care included in the clauses laid out, must be face to face. What matters is capacity, choice and informed consent, not physical proximity.
During Covid, I assessed thousands of patients’ capacity, consent and safeguarding issues remotely, with no evidence of increased coercion or harm. Patients can already refuse life-sustaining treatments such as renal dialysis, have feeding withdrawn or make advanced decisions to remove treatment without face-to-face legal requirements. Face-to-face assessment requirements, as laid out in these amendments, are a policy choice, not a clinical or ethical necessity. What protects patients is careful assessment, independence, documentation and review, not the distance between two chairs.
My Lords, for the reasons given, mainly by the noble Lord, Lord Empey, and despite what the noble Baroness, Lady Gerada, has just said, it seems to me highly desirable that there should be face-to-face contact if such an enormously important decision is being made. I therefore support face-to-face contact at both stages, other than for reasons where it cannot happen.
My Lords, taken together, the amendments in this group highlight the importance of contact with people at the hardest time in their lives—a time when we must be most vulnerable, clinically and personally. This must not be a process in which anyone is made to feel rushed or that can be completed entirely online.
If we are content to enable access to a slick service as quickly as possible, an online service may be acceptable, but if we are to continue to take seriously our duties of suicide prevention, of assessing and meeting unmet need and of safeguarding, the human contact of being face to face is part of that.
During the Select Committee sessions, we heard evidence from the chief executives of Mind and Standing Together Against Domestic Abuse, who said that an online or pre-recorded consultation was not an adequate safeguard to assess a person’s emotional state. This must be especially true in complex cases. I remind your Lordships that prisoners are still eligible under the Bill. As we engage with every group, we must consider how the particular issue might play out in a prison context. All the challenges that we are worried about, including the assessment of unmet need and the presence of an undiagnosed mental disorder, are more difficult in a prison environment. So I would be grateful if the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer, could outline whether he thinks in-person assessments should be even more important in a prison context.
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Recently, in a different policy, the Government rightly want to accelerate and increase substantially the number of face-to-face assessments for consideration of eligibility for sickness benefits. A lot of that was changed during Covid because, frankly, it was not practical to undertake that process. It has been gradually brought back and needs to be accelerated. The thinking alongside that policy is critical to the application of this Bill.
I have interpreted Clause 1(3)(b) as meaning that only
“steps under sections 10 and 11”
have to be done by persons in England and Wales, and that is the initial assessment. I put it to the Committee that a lot more of this should be done face to face. As the late James Munby pointed out, it is absolutely right that the panel should be considering this process and looking into this. I am conscious there will be medics here who have perhaps an even greater understanding than I of how the variety of assessments should be done face to face. What happens when people are making a declaration? Are we sure that somebody is not in the room, giving them the eyes so that they will give the right answers? How are we to understand whether coercion can happen or not?
In a documentary undertaken by ITV, the Bill’s promoter, Kim Leadbeater, expressed concerns about what happens in Oregon, where a lot of this is done by video link. I believe she was uncomfortable and would consider adding an amendment to make it clear that consultations with doctors could not be done by video call and should be done in person. That has not been done so far, and no explanation has been given. That is why I have tabled these amendments. They would be a very important way of making sure there are safeguards so that, as we go through this novel process to us— I appreciate it is not novel to the world—we have every confidence that a lot of the safeguards which people are concerned about are going to be appropriately applied.
Last week, a discussion on a group brought forward by the noble Lord, Lord Birt, gave us a picture of how this could look. Indeed, the amendments tabled by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer, have started to touch on aspects of this, such as how a commission can happen. But I can see that, very quickly, especially bearing in mind some of the amendments last week—though I appreciate that the noble and learned Lord did not accept them—a panel could be meeting every day. Right now, it could involve somebody on holiday in Tenerife and somebody else elsewhere meeting on Zoom or Teams or whatever. That could quickly become a routine tick-box exercise. That is the very reason the late Sir James Munby pointed out that this should not be given to judges—what is the point of having a judge if it will be just a tick-box exercise? We need to be careful that we do not end up in that situation.
In Amendment 65, I have suggested specifically what needs to be done face to face: the preliminary discussion, the request—as is in the Bill—and the witness. The witness should be there and it should be face to face. That seems sensible. We have the first and second assessment already there, but I think we could go further. What about the interaction with the independent advocate? Is that going to be done down the phone? These are the serious things which we need to consider. Should the panel meet face to face with the person applying? I appreciate that, in Amendment 320A, the assumption is that it should be face to face, but perhaps with exceptions by a video link. Again, when I initially started observing this at the other end, I thought that this would happen. What seems to have evolved is that a lot of this will be done remotely. The only thing I have not included in Amendment 65 is the actual doctor being there and the assessment happening in this country—although that is not specified in the Bill. Clause 25(3) says that the co-ordinating doctor has to be there in person, although under the following clause that can all be delegated to somebody else.
I do not want to overly labour the point in consideration, but I hope noble Lords will give some thought to how they want to see the Bill work in practice. It may be that people are happy for this all to happen via video and are wondering why we are getting in the way, given that this is about autonomy. However, these would be sensible amendments to consider to make sure that, while no Minister yet has said this is a safe Bill, it is as safe as possible. We need to look at the operation of it. It is certainly the case in other parts of the health system that a lot of this would not be acceptable and would have to be done face to face. It is not a case of overengineering the Bill or leaving it to regulations. We should be clear in Parliament that this is what we are going to do.
I am conscious of Amendment 320A, and I appreciate that my noble friend Lord Evans of Rainow, in Amendment 376, has particularly singled out “in person” for parts of Clause 12. I get that some people may be so terminally ill that perhaps a video link might be used, but that should be exceptional, if we are going to go down that route at all. I look forward to hearing my noble friend explain why that is the case and how it can be administered. With that, I beg to move.
That is why I am using the phrase “studied neglect”, to the “studied diligence” of noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer. We really have to look very carefully at the malign forces that, I am afraid, are out there in society. They look at granny and, as my noble friend Lord Deben says, the £2 million house sitting there, and can slowly but surely—but still relatively quickly—see the demise of granny and realise those capital assets. That is the reason why I put this amendment forward.
Crucial steps in the assisted dying process should be undertaken with direct, in-person interaction, to increase the likelihood that the individual’s request is truly voluntary, informed and free from coercion. The necessity for direct interaction with a person, particularly through face-to-face contact, is driven by the importance of rigorous safeguards and scrutiny, and of upholding patient autonomy in a process that culminates in an irreversible outcome, called death. I could use many more examples but, in the interests of time, I beg to move this amendment.
Thirdly, the evidence is clear: leading geriatricians and psychiatrists have told committees that assessing capacity remotely for complex patients is nigh on impossible. Telemedicine studies and the experience of courts show the limits of video for detecting vulnerability. We should legislate to reflect clinical reality, not hope that guidance will be followed uniformly across hundreds of clinicians and thousands of cases. Some will say that this amendment would delay access or over-engineer the process, but I disagree. A single in-person assessment at the outset is a modest investment of time that dramatically reduces the risk of error. If the system is robust, it will absorb that step without undue delay. If the system cannot, then speed is being prioritised over safety, and that would be a real problem.
Finally on this amendment, will the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer of Thoroton, accept that a life-ending pathway should begin with human contact, with a clinician who has seen the person in the flesh—smelled the room, so to speak—and observed the context in which that wish has arisen, or does he prefer a default of pixels on a screen? When the outcome is death, convenience must never trump clinical rigour. I urge the Committee to support my Amendment 320B.
My Amendment 347A would ensure that the second assessment—the final medical safeguard—is conducted in person. The Bill currently allows the independent doctor to assess the patient entirely by video. That is extraordinary for a life-ending decision. Experts told the House of Lords Select Committee that assessing capacity remotely is, as I said, nigh on impossible for complex patients. The subtle signs of confusion, fear, coercion or cognitive impairment are often visible only in person. Remote assessment hides the environment. Who is in the room? Who is influencing the patient? What pressure are they under? Kim Leadbeater MP herself said she was uncomfortable watching Oregon’s remote assessments, describing them as “tick-box”. If the sponsor is uncomfortable with death by Zoom, Parliament should not legislate for it. This amendment of mine is modest, proportionate and essential for safeguarding.
If remote assessments are permitted at all, my Amendment 406A would introduce the bare minimum safeguards: the doctor must verify that the patient is alone and speaking freely. Coercion, as we know, is often silent. Abusers can sit off-camera, and patients are coached. A Michigan prosecutor famously spotted a domestic abuse victim being coerced during a Zoom hearing. If trained lawyers and judges can miss coercion on video, how can a doctor reliably detect it in a single remote consultation? My amendment would not ban remote assessment but simply prevent the most obvious and dangerous form of abuse. Without it, the Bill’s coercion safeguards are meaningless.
My Amendment 415B would ensure that remote assessments are tightly controlled, used only when appropriate and subject to independent oversight. The Bill currently allows remote and even pre-recorded assessments without any statutory framework. A protocol approved by the commissioner would ensure consistency, transparency and accountability. It would prevent remote assessment becoming the default due to NHS pressures or simple convenience. Without this amendment, I suggest, the Bill creates a system where lethal decisions can be made based on pre-recorded video clips. That is indefensible.
In summary, my four amendments form a single, focused package of safeguards to ensure that human judgment, not administrative convenience, governs a life-ending pathway. Amendment 320B would make the first assessment face to face by default—the minimum human contact needed to test capacity and spot coercion. Amendment 347A would extend that presumption to the independent second assessment so that the final clinical check is equally robust. Amendment 406A would require a simple verification when assessments are remote—a recorded confirmation that the patient is alone and speaking freely. Amendment 415B demands a statutory protocol for remote or pre-recorded assessments so that exceptions are tightly controlled and independently verified.
These are modest, proportionate measures. They do not block access where an in-person assessment is genuinely impossible, but they stop convenience becoming the norm when the consequence is irreversible. If this Bill is to be the safest system in the world, will the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer of Thoroton, accept these targeted protections so that speed and convenience never replace clinical judgment and human scrutiny? I urge the Committee to support my amendments.