Sub-postmasters and Sub-postmistresses: Remuneration

I beg to move,

That this House has considered remuneration for Post Office sub-postmasters and sub-postmistresses.

It is a pleasure to serve with you in the Chair, Mr Twigg. The House has spent a fair amount of time in recent months considering the question of the Post Office and dealings with postmasters and postmistresses, but most of that has been in relation to the very long tail of the Horizon scandal. I make absolutely no complaint about that.

I have had debates in here and in the main Chamber where I have said that, in my view, the basic reason that whole scandal was allowed to happen was the culture that existed within the senior management of the Post Office. Basically, the people at the top just did not trust those at the sharp end of the businesses. As I have dealt with constituency cases relating to Horizon and seen some of the more recent advents, such as the bonus payment paid to Nick Read, the chief executive of the Post Office—in an act of utter tone-deafness—my concern is that the culture remains unchanged. If it has changed, it has not changed to the extent or at the speed that we would like.

A recent poll on the question of confidence in the board of the Post Office on the Facebook group Voice of the Postmaster attracted no fewer than 367 votes, and it was a 100% vote for no confidence. I mention Voice of the Postmaster because that is, as it were, the provisional wing of the organisation representing sub-postmasters. I have always worked very well with the National Federation of SubPostmasters over the years, but I increasingly hear concerns from sub-postmasters that the way in which the federation is constituted makes it difficult for it to represent sub-postmasters in the way they would want to be represented. I do not know the truth of that. It is not my job, or even the Minister’s, to reach a final decision on that at the moment, but I think we have to be aware and respectful of concerns when we hear them. There is clearly a job of work for Ministers and Post Office management to be done in that regard.

Figures provided by the Post Office recently in a conference call to postmasters and postmistresses show that it had a revenue and income last year of £915 million, while its total capital and spend on historic matters, which excludes compensation, was £85 million, and the compensation schemes cost £63 million. The Post Office employed 3,500 people, with a people cost—I assume that is a wages bill—of £180 million. A fairly crude arithmetic would suggest an average salary in the region of £48,000.

I would contrast that with what I and, I suspect, many of us around the country hear when we speak to the sub-postmasters and sub-postmistresses in our communities. My interest was really caught by one of the sub-postmasters in Shetland, Brian Smith, who runs the Freefield sub-post office in Lerwick, which is one of the bigger sub-post offices in Shetland. He came to me, showed me the figures and said quite simply, “How do I make a living from this?”

My right hon. Friend is laying bare the facts. In my constituency of North East Fife, we have lost a number of post offices since I was elected because a franchisee pulled out, as it simply does not make any money. It is easier to have a Costa Coffee machine than a Post Office counter for making money. People are not coming forward to reopen post offices, so remote communities are subject to being served by a Post Office van, when it is in operation. Does he agree that we need to do something?

I absolutely agree. I see this process happening and it has not happened suddenly; it has been happening for years. People retire, give up or for whatever reason decide they do not want to continue and nobody comes forward, so the post office remains nominally open, but in fact there is no service in the community—there might be some from another branch or wherever, but frankly the core of what the sub-post office is about is lost.

I think of the example of the post office in the village where I live. It is in the village shop. It was bought recently by somebody who had given up a career—of 51 years, he tells me—in IT, so he was not doing this to increase his income. He has transformed the shop. He has taken what was a good Orkney country shop and brought in a whole range of different fresh foods—Orkney fish, Orkney beef, everything. The quality of what we can get in that shop now is phenomenal, but he tells me it costs him to have a sub-post office counter in the business. It should not be costing somebody like that. That should be something that adds value, but we are seeing the determination and commitment of sub-postmasters and sub-postmistresses around the country being taken advantage of.

Oh my goodness! I am spoilt for choice. I give way to all three Members, but very quickly.

I agree completely with my right hon. Friend: remote areas have been hit hard by the declining number of post offices, but we are also seeing that in cities. One of the problems it brings is that post offices were meant to replace the counter services of many bank branches that have closed, so we have many elderly pensioners who are not online and now have even fewer options for getting their pension or going to the bank.

I give way to the hon. Member.

I commend the right hon. Gentleman for bringing the debate forward. He is absolutely right, and the same thing applies in my Strangford constituency. The wages and remuneration have to reflect—they do not at this point—the hours committed, the staff employed, the contribution to the local community and the social engagement for people of a senior generation. Those things are critical, and they must be reflected accordingly in the money for wages.

I give way to my hon. Friend.

In the north-west of my constituency, Mr and Mrs Mackay run a general store in the village of Durness in Sutherland. It is a fact that supermarket deliveries and mail order are threatening the store’s viability. That is something we should guard against.

Absolutely. With your indulgence, Mr Twigg, I took those interventions together because we had three different communities all telling us the same story. It is a story of commitment from sub-postmasters and sub-postmistresses that is not being met through their remuneration. The point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh West (Christine Jardine) should be emphasised, because isolation is not something that affects only those in rural communities. There are people who live in isolation in cities and towns. For them, a post office and access to a post office is an important service, and they stand to lose out as a consequence of the constant salami slicing that we see.

Another postmistress in my constituency from Orkney spoke about the different changes that she has to work with. She told me:

“A lot of mail and packages are left with us for collection. Every item has to be accounted for, processed in and processed out. We are quite often having to produce a proof of postage for mail that is paid for online. This takes some time checking that the correct postage has been paid. The changes to customs requirements have added on much more time to the process than what they claim”

—that is the Post Office—

“This is particularly true for Drop and Go accounts where we have to input the senders details for every package. This information could be pre populated…The Post Office do not provide all the items that may be required to meet their standards—for example, a shredder.”

The list of things that are done for communities by people running sub-post offices was shared by my constituent Juliet Bellis, who runs the sub-post office in Fetlar, an island community in Shetland with 68 residents. She makes the point that elderly and infirm residents there rely on the post office to charge up their electricity keys. She says:

I thank the right hon. Member for bringing such an important matter to the House. I was a postmaster, and I have often said in the House that I am the only serving MP to have been in that role. Indeed, it is wonderful to see Calum Greenhow, the chief executive of the National Federation of SubPostmasters, in the Public Gallery.

Despite the Post Office’s commercial revenues increasing by about £100 million over the last few years, the actual revenue that sub-postmasters have earned in that time has fallen substantially, by 12% in just the last three years. As the right hon. Member said, of the 11,700 post offices that operate around the country, only 9,500 are full-time services, simply because of the lack of viability. Does this not show that we must give this great British institution the power to pay people properly for running post offices?

The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right, and I do not think we are going to have much contention in this debate. The same point was made to me by Valerie Johnson, who is the sub-postmistress at Baltasound, Unst. She pointed out that holiday pay is contracted to cover roughly £5 per hour, but there has been no update since 2016. That is probably the sort of thing that produces the outcome to which the hon. Gentleman just referred.

The final point I want to deal with relates to bank charges. As we know, we are pushing more and more banks into using the Post Office, and the figures that have been put to me show massive disparities between the amounts that can be paid in on a daily or annual basis. For Barclays, the limit is £3,000 per transaction but only £10,000 per year. For Danske Bank, it is £1,000 per day and £5,000 every 180 days. Ironically, the Post Office instant saver account has a limit of £1,000 per day or £10,000 per year, as does the Post Office reward saver. Brian Smith told me just last week that when people hand over their takings and pay money into bank accounts through the post office, it does not know whether that person is anywhere near the account cap. If the post office staff spend time counting out the money, only to find that they cannot take it because the customer has exceeded the cap, that is a source of enormous and legitimate frustration for them.

Mr Twigg, you may think that I have just about vented my spleen and exhausted everything that I have to say, but today it has been brought to my attention that negotiations between the Post Office and the Driver and Vehicle Licensing Agency are reaching a crisis point. At present, 6 million DVLA transactions, worth something in the region of £3.2 million, are made through post offices every year. I am told by the Post Office that the likeliest outcome is that it will get a 12-month extension to the agreement, which would take it to 31 March 2024, but that the DVLA is not committing beyond that point.

Does the right hon. Member agree that the Government’s pledge—made many years ago and never kept—that local post offices would be the “front office of Government” is really beginning to sound more and more hollow, and that they are likely to be in breach of the Equality Act 2010 and indeed their own policy on access to cash and social inclusion, if this change goes ahead?