Procedure and Privileges Committee

Motion to Agree

That the Report from the Select Committee Divisions: pass-readers; Sessional select committees; Participation of eligible members in oral statements and repeated urgent questions (6th Report, HL Paper 152) be agreed to.

My Lords, the report before your Lordships covers three distinct issues. Before I move to the recommendations on the conduct of Divisions, I will cover the committee’s other recommendations.

The Standing Order on sessional committees is straightforward and the report sets out the committee’s position.

On our recommendation for Oral Statements and the amendment in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes of Cumnock, on 1 December, we debated the committee’s fourth report. This report recommended that the practice of speakers’ list for Oral Questions, which was adopted as part of our hybrid House procedures and retained after we returned largely to business as usual in September, be discontinued. Since that time, the House has been essentially self-regulating during Question Time and the Leader has brought in eligible Members who wish to participate remotely, following consultation with the usual channels. The committee’s sense is that this change has worked well and, for that reason, we now recommend it be extended to Oral Statements and repeated Urgent Questions.

I am well aware that some noble Lords believe the Lord Speaker, not the Leader, should undertake this role. Indeed, the noble Baroness, Lady Quin, tabled an amendment to this effect last December, which she ultimately withdrew. The amendment from the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, is in a similar vein, seeking to provide for the Lord Speaker to call on virtual participants during Questions, Oral Statements and repeated Urgent Questions, rather than the Leader of the House. While the noble Lord’s proposal would represent a change to the procedures of the House, it also raises practical considerations, such as the configuration of the House, which would need further consideration by the Procedure and Privileges Committee before any change could be implemented. With all due deference, this is the third time this Session that we have had a debate on this issue, but I am, as always, in the hands of the House.

Moved by

As an amendment to the first Motion in the name of the Senior Deputy Speaker, at the end insert “but that this House believes that the Lord Speaker should call remote participants during questions, oral statements, and repeated urgent questions, rather than the Leader of the House”.

My Lords, I thank the Senior Deputy Speaker for the courteous way in which he has dealt with these issues, both formally and informally. I am most grateful to him for discussing them with me.

First, I emphasise that I think it is crucial that we have an efficient and fair system to allow our remote disabled colleagues to participate as much as possible. Secondly, I approve the extension of their ability to participate. The only issue before us is who calls them to speak, and that brings me to my amendment.

Let me say what my amendment is not. It is not a party-political issue in any way whatever. It does not in any way compare us with the other place because the other place does not have an arrangement to allow disabled people to participate remotely; in fact, yet again the other place is not as enlightened as we are in this House, just as we were first with televising the House and on many other innovations. And it is not a beauty contest; I think we would lose right away if it were.

So why am I proposing this amendment? First, the chair of all the meetings I have ever been to has been the moderator of the debate. That applies to committees of this House, where the chair calls people to speak. Secondly, the Leader of the House has many other responsibilities. Even today, just before this debate, she dealt with an important Covid Statement, and later today, she will give a Statement on the crucial issue of Ukraine. She is a member of the Cabinet, and has many other responsibilities. Why should we require her to do this, when we have a perfectly competent Lord Speaker and, if I may say so, an equally competent Senior Deputy Speaker, as well as many other Deputy Speakers who stand in and carry out that responsibility very well? In fact, we saw a perfect example of this earlier today, when my noble friend Lady McIntosh of Hudnall called the noble Baroness, Lady Brinton, to speak remotely on the previous Statement. She did it with skill and effectiveness. Among everything else, with due respect to the Senior Deputy Speaker, she proved that the configuration of the House, which was his main argument, is not a problem. She was able to deal with it perfectly.

My Lords, I do not know whether the noble Lord, Lord Cormack, is going to speak at this point. If he is not, I am always happy to say a few words.

I am grateful to my friend, the noble Lord, Lord Grocott. I was expecting my amendment to be called from the Woolsack, but I am glad to speak now. I begin in a similar vein to my friend, the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, because another friend—although he is no longer technically my noble friend—the noble Lord, Lord Gardiner, the Senior Deputy Speaker, is the very embodiment of courtesy. None of us could ever criticise him for not listening carefully and seeking to understand what we are saying.

There is a danger that we will make a permanent change to our procedures this afternoon. When electronic voting and pass reading were first talked of, it was the height of the Covid crisis and this was another way of helping. The original proposal was that, at a suitable moment, we would all vote within the Parliamentary Estate and pass readers would be installed, both in the Lobbies and the Prince’s Chamber. There was even talk of having readers in the Royal Gallery. One understands why: it would have enabled people to keep socially distancing and still discharge their duties where they should be discharged—on the premises.

There have been a few changes since then, not the least of which was announced this afternoon. When we had that debate on 25 October, my noble friend Lord Taylor of Holbeach, who sits in front of me now and I hope will contribute to this debate, made one of the most perceptive interventions when he talked about the crucial role of the teller. That, for some reason, had been ignored by the committee. The noble Lord, Lord Gardiner of Kimble, kindly did not press the Motion that afternoon. He withdrew it and said he would take it back to the committee, and he acknowledged the force of the argument on tellers. Now he comes back with a revised version.

First, this is not something to deal with Covid anymore. It is a permanent change to our voting arrangements. He says it will be reviewed, and I hope it will, carefully and thoroughly, taking account of the views of Members in all parts. I believe we owe that to those who have joined your Lordships’ House in the last two years who, until September last year, had no idea what a proper Question Time is like. Many of them, for entirely understandable reasons, liked the idea of the printed Question list, which we had. I was always against it, as were many noble Lords who have been here for a long time, but I have lost count of the number of newer colleagues who have come to me, since we reverted to spontaneity, and said, “You and your friends were right—it is better this way”. I would like those newer Members, who have no experience of the old system of voting, to experience it, because then they will have something to measure against. That would be entirely fair and reasonable.

My noble friend referred to the other place. I have a great affection for the other place; I spent 40 years there. But in many procedural ways I prefer this one. It was possibly not entirely appropriate for him to quote the figures he did, bearing in mind that in the other place the Whips control somewhere between 60% and 80% of the votes by proxy. I hope that is not going to persist and I hope it will not ever be introduced here —I have not heard any suggestion it will be, and sincerely hope it will not be. Although, as my noble friend Lord Forsyth of Drumlean said, I can see the Chief Whip pricking up his ears and thinking how much more interesting and desirable it might be if he could press 80 buttons—but I digress.

There is another point—it may be a simple point, and some might dismiss it. The report says:

“To cast a vote, a member must present a valid security pass to one of the pass-readers located in the division lobbies, except as otherwise provided for in Standing Orders 24A and 53.”

Those standing orders deal with the disabled, to which my noble friend referred when he introduced this. It continues:

“Having voted, a member should pass the Tellers as they leave the lobby”.

When we receive our Writ of Summons to serve in your Lordships’ House, we do not receive it with an instruction to vote electronically—or to do anything else electronically for that matter. I believe to say that a Member—because this, without amendment, is what it says—may only vote if they have a pass is a step too far. This on its own is a reason why the committee should keep this matter under the most constant review.

Like the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, I want to listen to the debate. and I will decide whether or not to seek to divide the House. But it was important to bring this matter to the attention of the House and to realise that we are being asked to make a permanent change to our voting procedures and practices in your Lordships’ House. I do not believe the case has been made for that. The Covid reason—one of the buzzwords of the age—has now gone. It may come back, but it has gone for the time being as far as our practices are concerned. That is perfectly clear. I very much hope that careful thought will be given to this because to make a permanent change of this sort is a very serious step to take. In the context of Covid and Ukraine later today, this is a domestic debate. But how we conduct ourselves is of real national importance and I will listen with great care to what others have to say.

My Lords, this is not the first time we have had this debate and it will not surprise many people that I agree wholeheartedly with the amendment in the name of my noble friend Lord Foulkes. I think it is time, maybe at the conclusion of this debate, to test the opinion of the House.

I want to put this in some kind of context. It has been 17 years since we established the position of Lord Speaker. It was highly controversial. The main concern expressed by those opposed to the inauguration of a Lord Speaker was that they feared we would end up with a Speaker like in the House of Commons. I had a great deal of sympathy for that view, but surely we can reach the conclusion now, after 17 years, that there has been at no stage the slightest evidence of the Lord Speaker here becoming like a Speaker in the House of Commons—adjudicating on points of order and the rest. We can say categorically that the Lord Speaker’s position in this House is not like the Speaker in the House of Commons and there is no remote possibility of that happening. I hope we can put that particular scare story to bed.

I also point out that, slowly over these 17 years—things do not happen quickly in this place—there has been a movement of responsibilities towards the Lord Speaker. Every one of those movements, small and slight at each stage, has seemed to be absolute common sense as soon as they have been introduced. The most recent, of course, is that the Lord Speaker now introduces the business, as opposed to the clerk sitting at the Table—for example, announcing when a Statement is to be made and what it is about. They were all common-sense proposals that the person in the chair does those things.

Does anyone listening to this short debate think that the sensible thing now would be to move the clock backwards and reinstate those responsibilities wherever they existed before—in part with the Clerk at the Table and, more significantly, with the Leader of the House? I do not think anyone does, and I am certain that, if we made the very small change that my noble friend is proposing, we would think it was common sense to go back to it after an experimental period of six months. So I hope the House will make a decision on this. I always try to understand opposing views, but I really cannot see a case for it remaining with the Leader of the House—not least, of course, because the Lord Speaker is the same person there every day. There is continuity, predictability and common sense.

My Lords, I have a great deal of sympathy with my noble friend Lord Gardiner. He listened to the debate, and he and his committee have come back with a perfectly reasonable solution. The issue that concerned us most was the role of the Tellers, and that has been sorted.

Having said that, I am concerned about the constitutional position. We get a Writ of Summons which entitles us to come here and vote. During the period of the previous Clerk of the Parliaments, when we could not get in here because of people gluing themselves to the pavement, blocking the road and everything else, I went to see him and said, “What has happened to the Sessional Orders that we pass every year?” He said, “They’re really decorative. They don’t really matter”. They matter immensely, because it means that a mob could actually prevent us voting and, more importantly, people in the other place voting—