Procedure and Privileges

Motion to Agree

That the Report from the Select Committee Virtual participation in Grand Committee; Divisions: pass-readers; Leave of Absence (3rd Report, HL Paper 81) be agreed to.

My Lords, I shall listen very carefully to the forthcoming debate. I am happy to answer questions on all matters related to virtual participation in Grand Committee but I will focus my opening remarks on pass-reader voting and leave of absence, and address the amendments tabled by the noble Lords, Lord Taylor of Holbeach, Lord Rooker, Lord Cormack and Lord Forsyth of Drumlean, which all relate to these matters.

On voting, noble Lords will be aware of the background. In June last year we introduced a remote voting system, which we know as PeerHub, as part of our response to the pandemic. We continue to use that system, although since September, as we have returned to conducting proceedings predominantly here in this Chamber, noble Lords have been required to confirm when using the remote voting system that they are in a place of work on the Parliamentary Estate.

The logical next step, as we return even more closely to normality, is to reintroduce a system which requires noble Lords to cast their votes in person in or near the Chamber, as they did up to and until March 2020, but instead of clerks recording Members’ names the system recommended by the Procedure and Privileges Committee, which the House endorsed in July, is to use pass readers. That will require physical presence, as noble Lords will have to present a valid pass to the readers, but it also allows us some flexibility in where the pass readers are located. This means we will not be confined to the Lobbies, particularly while Covid remains a major public health concern.

Your Lordships’ committee has recommended what we believe to be a workable solution. As noble Lords may have seen, there are four pass readers in each Division Lobby, allowing those who wish to return to the Lobbies to vote to do so. But there are also two readers in Prince’s Chamber, giving those noble Lords who have continuing concerns the option of voting without entering the Chamber or the Lobbies.

The amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Taylor of Holbeach, raises some particularly important points, starting with the location of the pass readers. As I have outlined, we have sought to reconcile some noble Lords’ desire to return to the Lobbies with others’ desire to maintain some degree of social distancing; hence our recommendation to install two pass readers in Prince’s Chamber. This has unavoidable procedural consequences. The roll of a Teller is to tell the votes—to count them. That will not be possible if noble Lords vote in different locations, with some in the Lobbies and others in Prince’s Chamber, so if we accept different locations as our starting point the role of Teller will cease. That is the logic of the proposal we have brought forward.

If, however, we take as our starting point the proposition of the noble Lord, Lord Taylor of Holbeach, that Tellers should be retained, other consequences will follow. First, there can be no pass readers in Prince’s Chamber. To preserve the role of Tellers, all noble Lords, other than the handful of Members with long-term disabilities who are eligible to vote remotely, will have to go through the Lobbies. Not only that, but for up to three minutes until Tellers are in place, noble Lords will have to wait in crowded Division Lobbies. Only when the Tellers have arrived and started to count the votes will it be possible to unlock the doors leading out of the Lobbies.

The noble Lord’s amendment refers to congestion. I submit that what the committee has proposed—allowing noble Lords to vote in different locations around the Chamber as soon as a Division is called, then immediately to disperse—is the best way to avoid congestion. I emphasise that our proposals for conducting Divisions are not set in stone. We have not at this stage proposed amendments to the Standing Orders governing the conduct of Divisions. Instead, to preserve as much flexibility as possible, we have proposed that initially we rely on guidance. That guidance can be revisited and updated with a minimal delay.

Secondly, as the report makes clear, we are committed to conducting a full review of the pass-reader voting system

“no later than January 2022”.

I assure the House that all noble Lords, once they have had some experience of pass-reader voting, will have an opportunity to offer their reflections and influence the final shape of Divisions. I can also undertake that the results of that review will be set out in a report which the House will have an opportunity to consider, and that we will defer bringing forward amendments to Standing Orders relating to Divisions until this review has taken place.

I turn to the amendment in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Rooker. I hope that what I have said about the planned review will also reassure him. I note his regret that pass readers have been positioned outside the Lobbies, and of course the location of pass readers, along with the data on the actual use made of each pass reader, will be important elements within that review. I am grateful to the noble Lord for his amendment, and I hope he too will accept my confirmation as to the rigour of the review.

The amendment tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Cormack, would, at some point in the future when all Covid restrictions have been lifted, restore the arrangements for Divisions to how they operated before the pandemic. This means that we would have to remove pass readers not just from Prince’s Chamber but from the Lobbies. Instead of pass readers, which record Members’ names quickly and accurately, we would revert to having two clerks in each Lobby recording Members’ names on tablet devices. I have huge respect for the skills of the clerks, but this would be slower, less accurate and a less reliable system. I understand the noble Lord’s sentiments and I hope he will consider that the best time for the House to consider these matters will be after the review, when we can assess how the pass-reader system has worked for your Lordships.

I turn to the amendment tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth of Drumlean. The committee’s proposed amendment to Standing Order 21 on leave of absence would reflect a principle which the House agreed as long ago as 2016 should be incorporated in the Guide to the Code of Conduct. This principle is that, if a noble Lord seeks to take a leave of absence to avoid either an investigation into their conduct or a potential sanction, or if, having taken leave of absence they refuse to co-operate with an investigation, then that leave of absence could be either refused or terminated. While the principle itself is well established, the process for putting it into effect has yet to be reflected in the Standing Order on leave of absence. That is what we have sought to do in our report to achieve internal consistency between the rules in the code and those in the Standing Orders.

The noble Lord seeks to replace “shall” with “may”. I must emphasise the sensitivity of the issues that can arise in such cases. These are active and often acutely sensitive investigations that proceed in strict confidence. Both complainants and noble Lords who are subject to complaints have a right to privacy, and the idea that ongoing investigations should be publicly debated would, I believe, be highly inappropriate.

I also underline that the proposed new Standing Order states that the House will only terminate or refuse a leave of absence where this is “necessary” to enable the codes on conduct to be enforced. This is already a high bar, and I do not think that changing “shall” to “may” makes it any higher.

This is not a draconian new restriction. Such an application would only be made in the unlikely event that a noble Lord refused to co-operate in an investigation, which they are required to do under the code, and used the leave of absence scheme as cover. In fact, no such case has arisen since 2016, and I hope that it never does.

As I have said, I am looking forward to the debate, and I shall listen with very considerable care. With respect to Divisions and pass readers, the committee’s proposals have merits. This has involved a very considerable amount of work, but I am also conscious of the contributions that noble Lords will bring to these matters in the forthcoming debate. I clearly want to ensure that we can achieve as much consensus as possible in what we perhaps all would agree are imperfect circumstances.

Having had the privilege of chairing the Procedure and Privileges Committee, I say to all noble Lords that every Member is seeking to do the best for the House. The committee reflects a divergence of views, but we have all worked in the common interest of the best interests of the House. I emphasise that because I sometimes get an impression that there is a consideration that committees spin in their own orbits without taking into account the feelings of the House. My view is that, from my experience, all Members have worked extremely effectively and diligently and are reflecting those.

I admit that I suspect there will be diverging views across the House. I seek an acceptable compromise that is practical in the circumstances I have outlined, that keeps us all—by “us” I mean not only noble Lords but everyone who works in the House of Lords —as safe as possible and, of course, primarily, enables noble Lords to fulfil their responsibilities. I beg to move.