I remind all Members of the guidance from the House of Commons Commission and the Government to wear masks and to give other Members appropriate space when entering or leaving the room.
I recognise that the House rightly paid tribute to Sir David Amess, given the tragedy of his killing last week, but we should also remind ourselves that Sir David was a highly respected and long-serving member of the Panel of Chairs. In other circumstances, he might have been in my place today. Without getting formal, we will all want to think our own personal thoughts about the contribution that Sir David made as a Chair and in other ways as a Member of this House, about the incredible loss and grief felt for him, and about his family at this time.
That this House has considered the effect of post office closures on local communities.
It is a real pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Betts, and I will add my own tribute to Sir David. He was a wonderful man and will be sadly missed by everyone across Parliament.
I extend my thanks to the Backbench Business Committee and to all the Members present. I am sure they will be speaking about how important and valued their local post offices and post office staff are, and about the effect of post office closures on their communities. This debate on the effect of post office closures on local communities is important.
I thank the Minister for attending. I am glad that he is still in post. It is imperative that the UK Government have someone overseeing the Post Office brief who understands it, who can see that the Horizon scandal is concluded satisfactorily, with all its victims and their families compensated, and who will ensure that the post office network continues unabated.
Post offices are at the heart of our communities. They are used most regularly by the most vulnerable members of society—the elderly, people with disabilities and those who are unable to work, for example—and more than nine in 10 people agree that post offices provide an essential service for them or others. Communities suffer when post offices close, whether temporarily or for good. Local residents and businesses suffer serious inconvenience. For some, the withdrawal of perhaps their only regular human contact causes real misery and hardship.
As chair of the all-party parliamentary group on post offices, and on behalf of all its members, I thank postmasters and post office staff—those key workers— across the UK, who have served us well throughout the pandemic. They have been a lifeline to many people through their work at the heart of our community.
That broad range of stakeholders my hon. Friend has just told us about reflects the fact that a broad range of communities are still focused on the need for post offices in their local areas. Does she agree that we must heed the asks of community organisations? Broom, Kirkhill and Mearnskirk Community Council is keen to secure post office services in its local area, because it knows how much they matter for the most vulnerable in our society, as she said.
I thank my hon. Friend for her intervention. What she says is absolutely true. I am sure that all of us present and further afield would vouch for the real feeling for post offices across the entire UK. In fact, I have been known to say in the APPG that the reason I took on its chairmanship was to ensure that there was a network of post offices in an independent Scotland—that network is right across the UK.
We have also spoken to franchisee representatives, and we hold regular meetings with the CEO of Post Office Ltd and the Minister. Recently, the APPG decided to be less reactive and more proactive in its approach to sustaining the network. The APPG is currently compiling a Post Office action plan, to provide an outline vision for the network going forward. I hope the UK Government and Post Office Ltd will carefully and seriously consider the proposals put forward by members.
I am extremely grateful to the hon. Lady for giving way, for securing this debate and for the work that she does on behalf of our post offices. I am sure that, like many hon. Members, she has received representations over recent weeks from charities based in her constituency that are very concerned about commercial banks levying charges on their activities. For many of those charities and community groups, those charges are going to be prohibitive. Does she believe that the Post Office could fill the void that is being left by the commercial banks by providing a community banking service, expanding banking services, safeguarding the Post Office and helping to improve the lives of our communities?
I thank the hon. Gentleman for what he has said. Yes, I think that it could. Although the Post Office was almost coerced into taking on banking, it is something that we need to seriously look at. There are models in other countries’ post office networks, and there have been studies. That is an excellent suggestion.
As we all know, the UK Government are the owners of the post office network; they cannot sit idly by, allowing closures and the impact that they have on local communities and economies. The public expects the Government to play a proactive and direct role in preserving and growing the network. Post offices may not be the first things that spring to mind when thinking of public services, but whenever a post office closes it is always missed. Post offices are, without a doubt, valued public assets and must remain so. Closures not only create an inconvenience but harm local businesses and the welfare of local people, given that the most vulnerable people rely on post offices for access to cash.
I thank the hon. Lady for giving way and for her work with the APPG on post offices. In my constituency, which is facing four closures, the answer in the short term seems to be mobile services. Does she agree that those are simply insufficient for communities and that we should be urging the UK Government and the Post Office to look for longer-term solutions?
Absolutely. I thank the hon. Lady for intervening. Her constituency was one of the most affected by the SPAR closures in Scotland, to which I will refer later, as well as outreach services.
It is devastating for everyone when a branch is closed, especially when it happens in a rural community where the post office may be not only the last shop in the village but also the last bank.
I am really grateful for all the hon. Lady does on behalf of post offices. In York, in my short time in Parliament, we have lost post offices in Acomb and Tang Hall, we have lost two in Clifton and we have lost our Crown post office—it is now placed in a WH Smith, which is far more inaccessible than it was previously. Does she agree that, before any post office closure, there should be a community consultation about how that estate could be repurposed as a community service?
Absolutely. I know how hard the hon. Lady has worked for her constituents in York and with regard to the Crown post office closure there.
Post offices support local businesses. Half of those who started selling online during the pandemic have used the post office to post items, while three in four marketplace sellers say that if their local post office were to close, it would become difficult to send items to their customers. In my constituency of Motherwell and Wishaw, communities have experienced both temporary and permanent closures, notably the permanent closure of the Brandon Street Crown branch in Motherwell town centre. Sadly, many Crown branches have been closed—decisions typically opposed by the communities affected. Unlike smaller branches, Crown post offices offered a wide range of services, which made them service hubs at the heart of communities.
While post office closures present a real issue for local communities, some initiatives have the potential to provide great support to those communities. Cambuslang in my constituency is home to a post office bank hub, which has massively increased access to banking services, and I was delighted that the Economic Secretary to the Treasury visited the constituency last week to hear all about that fantastic initiative. Does the hon. Member agree that the focus should be on rolling out these multi-purpose initiatives?
I thank the hon. Member for her intervention. I, too, visited Cambuslang a number of months ago, and it is a great initiative. The local community council fought hard for that pilot, and it was doing great work. I think there is a way forward through that kind of initiative, which again I will come on to.
There are multiple reasons for branch closures, but at the root of many of them is the issue of sub-postmaster remuneration. Post Office Ltd must agree a fair deal with sub-postmasters. The Horizon scandal has undoubtedly damaged the relationship between Post Office Ltd and sub-postmasters and staff, and the ongoing work to repair that relationship must continue. Now more than ever, it is essential that sub-postmasters are properly remunerated. Many of the sub-postmasters I have spoken to have said that they have handed in their keys because they simply cannot afford to live on the income they make from running a post office. Some sub-postmasters have even reported that they have been earning less than the minimum wage.
That is simply not good enough. Citizens Advice has found that the number of temporarily closed branches has doubled since 2013, and that two in three remain closed for over a year and two in five for over two years. Poor remuneration is not just forcing sub-postmasters to retire or postpone retirement; it is preventing a new generation from taking up the role, as they see no value in it. The UK Government must provide the funding, and Post Office Ltd must agree to guarantee a minimum income for every sub-postmaster so that their hard work pays off and running a post office can be an attractive opportunity.
Another reason for concern is the over-reliance on franchise postmasters—not independent sub-postmasters, I hasten to add, but large retail chains. Only this year, SPAR announced the closure of 31 of its 48 Scottish counters. If a larger retail partner were to go into administration or decide that having a post office counter was not worth their while, that could leave hundreds of communities without a local branch. I fear that Post Office Ltd is fighting a losing battle with large franchisees and putting all its eggs in one basket to meet the national access criteria. CJ Lang has said that it made more money from putting a Costa machine into a branch than it did from running a post office. That is an outstanding critique of what is wrong with the post office network at the moment. Can the Minister outline what the Government’s contingency plans are in the event that a large partner decides to close its branches, or close altogether? It is not just up to Post Office Ltd to sort this issue out.
I am grateful to the hon. Lady for being so generous. When a company in the rail industry cannot operate, an operator of last resort is backed by the Government. To maintain these community assets, surely we need a model whereby the Government step in; and would that not also be a step towards what is really needed, which is to look at nationalising the Post Office, which we know our communities really do want?
I thank the hon. Lady for her intervention; again, she hits the nail right on the head. I welcome the pilot of the post office banking hubs. However, I am aware that many sub-postmasters are concerned about the impact they will have on existing branches, and I share their concerns. We cannot have branches in competition with and cannibalising each other. The full impact on existing branches must be watched closely.
However, I give full support to the private Member’s Bill in the name of the hon. Member for North Norfolk (Duncan Baker), who unfortunately cannot be here today. It aims to establish in law that major banks will be obligated to provide banking services through local post office branches.
Banks have been let off the hook. They are abandoning town centres, villages and customers. Not only should banks be mandated to provide their services through post offices via the banking framework, but they must be made to pay for the outreach and banking services that the post office network provides. At present, many sub-postmasters are subsidising the running of these services. That cannot be allowed to continue. Will the Minister confirm today that the Government will back the Bill from the hon. Member for North Norfolk and, if not, what alternatives will be put in place?
Post offices are just one means of accessing cash, and losing a bank branch can make it much more difficult for people to access cash. The UK Government previously committed to an access to cash Bill, which has not yet been forthcoming. We are hurtling towards a cashless society, which will undoubtedly impact the most vulnerable people. Measured action is needed so that cash can be available free of charge to those who prefer it. Can the Minister confirm whether it is still the Government’s intention to introduce a Bill in the coming parliamentary term?
I understand that some of this is under the auspices of the Treasury, but we cannot keep passing the buck and going backwards and forwards, nor can we have the silo mentality whereby one Government Department is responsible for the money to post offices and the Minister has to say, “Well, it’s not my job, it’s the Treasury.” We need joined-up thinking on this.
Six Members have indicated that they would like to speak. In order to start the Front Benchers at no later than half past 10, I would suggest about six minutes for each Back Bencher. I call Andy Slaughter.
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship this morning, Mr Betts. You paid tribute earlier to Sir David in another of his roles here, and it occurred to me as you were doing so that this is exactly the sort of debate he would have loved, because it is about championing essential services in our constituencies.
I congratulate the hon. Member for Motherwell and Wishaw (Marion Fellows) on securing the debate. This is an important issue—it has been for many years, and it is a shame that we have watched the decline of the post office network over that period. It should not really need saying that post offices are essential services and that they are part of our communities, but sometimes I think Post Office Ltd needs to be convinced of that. Association of Convenience Stores public surveys have shown that post offices are considered the most essential services in the community. There is also the work done by Citizens Advice. Most of all, there is the response from our constituents when offices close permanently or temporarily. That should tell us all, lest there be any doubt in the Minister’s mind, that post offices continue to be absolutely vital to sustaining communities.
It is true that there was a downsizing in the network in the 2000s and that many branches closed. I represent a constituency in a fairly small borough where there were eight proposed closures. After a very vigorous campaign, we managed to keep five of those open. Across the country, many hundreds of branches did close then. If there was any silver lining in that cloud, it was that we were told that it would make the network sustainable and able to stand on its own feet and that that would be the end of it.
There was still a sustainable network left at that point. However, a bit like with court closures, the Government seemed to get the taste from that, and we have continued to run down the network in what has really been death by a thousand cuts. We have seen a complete reduction of the Crown post office network. Whenever there is a retirement or a redevelopment, which happens quite often in my constituency, it is difficult to sustain the service and keep the office open.
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The APPG on post offices is close to my heart, as the plight of sub-postmasters in Motherwell and Wishaw was one of the first campaigns I was involved in. We have no secretariat for the APPG and I am very grateful for the additional work that my staff put in to ensure that the APPG runs smoothly. We are a big-tent APPG, with MPs and peers from all political parties and none, and diverse organisations such as the National Federation of SubPostmasters, the Communication Workers Union, Citizens Advice, the Association of Convenience Stores, and the Countryside Alliance. All those organisations are testament to the importance of the post office network across the UK.
As banks leave high streets and town centres, post offices are filling the gap. Over 4,300 bank branches and building societies have closed since 2015—over a third of the entire network. In fact, post office branches now represent 60% of all the UK’s branch-based cash access points. Banking and access to cash must therefore be part of the long-term vision for the network. In September, Post Office Ltd announced that it had taken in £2.9 billion of deposits, with that figure expected to rise to over £3 billion this month. Many local businesses are using post office branches to make deposits, and others who rely on cash are using those branches for withdrawals. As post offices take on a greater financial role, the security of branches and staff must be reviewed. In my discussions with sub-postmasters, they have raised concerns about security. I hope that the Minister will elaborate on what steps he has taken and what discussions he has had, or will have, with Post Office Ltd on the issue of branch security.
The Post Office has massive potential to provide not just banking services, but a range of services. The UK Government have previously committed to making post offices the front office of Government. With over 11,500 branches across these islands, they are perfectly placed to be that, but the UK Government have pulled service after service from the network, most notably the Post Office card account. One million people used a POCA in 2019 and this has fallen since the forced migration of recipients to bank accounts.
However, for many, a bank account is still out of reach. It is also an additional and unnecessary hoop for people to jump through to receive their benefit payments or pensions. It makes no sense that when banks are leaving and post offices remain, a greater emphasis would be put on banking.
Other services, such as biometric enrolment and HMRC payments, have also been removed. Whenever the UK Government remove a service, that means less income for the post office network and its sub-postmasters, which makes closures more likely. The income derived from these services can be small, but proves how important it is to encourage people to use their post office services.
The Minister has heard me speak many times on post offices, as has everyone else in this Chamber. That is because they are an important service that people across the UK recognise, use, value and need. It is vital that the post office network continues in spite of the difficulties that Horizon has forced on to Post Office Ltd. I appreciate that the Government have given money, but I and many others are concerned that the situation will lead in the end to a diminution of post office services. I plead with and urge the Minister to make sure that the post office network continues, grows and thrives, and that those who run post offices on our behalf are suitably recompensed.
I want to come on to the plague of the so-called temporary closure. I have two town centres in my constituency, in Hammersmith and Shepherds Bush. They both used to have thriving Crown offices—substantial public buildings. Hammersmith’s post office had been there for a century, since 1920, and was important not just for the functions it carried out, but as a notable public building. There were three Crown post offices in the constituency at one time and they have all gone now. We have only a third of the Crown network that we had 10 years ago.
In many cases, the product of this situation has been the rather unhappy liaison with WHSmith. It is quite easy to see why Post Office Ltd saw the attraction of WHSmith. It tends to provide space for no rental, because it is not a thriving business and wants to draw custom into its stores. In a way, it has become a marriage of two failing enterprises trying to support each other, and not a very happy one.
In Shepherds Bush, I lost the town centre Crown post office, which went into a WHSmith in the Westfield shopping centre; similarly, Hammersmith’s post office went into a WHSmith there. But at least they were continuing, and Post Office Ltd conceded that we needed town centre offices. Two years ago they told me they would find a new office for Shepherds Bush centre, but that has never materialised. That is partly, I am sure, because of covid but it shows that there is no follow-up when these things happen.
A year ago, the main office in Hammersmith closed. These are extremely busy and thriving town centres. They both had a huge throughput because of office workers during the day and they are busy shopping centres seven days a week. We know that there is a need for a continuing post office service, because the surrounding small branch offices, even when they are half a mile or a mile away, have queues outside because the main offices have closed. That is all the more extraordinary, given that most of the major banks have substantially reduced their branch networks. I used the example of Shepherds Bush, where NatWest, Barclays and Santander have all closed branches. The last remaining bank, HSBC, has reduced its hours. The post office was the only financial institution providing a great variety of services there, and it is certainly sustainable.
I am interested to hear the Minister’s views on this question. Why does he think there are so many closures? If he says, no, that the network numbers have remained stable over the past years, that would ignore the new practice of temporary closures. I have five temporary closures in my constituency and three of those offices have been closed for more than five years. They are all very important branches. The one in St Ann’s Road, on the border with Kensington, serves the Edward Woods estate. I say that as I see that the hon. Member for Kensington (Felicity Buchan) is here in her role as Parliamentary Private Secretary. The one in White City is in one of the most deprived parts of my constituency. I declare an interest in that one is just round the corner from my constituency office in the Fulham Palace Road, which we used heavily, as the Minister can imagine. Those three have been closed for more than five years. On top of that we have new closures. There is the one that I mentioned in Hammersmith, which has been closed for a year, with plans for that now abandoned and a return to the beginning with the search for a new sponsor, and there is one at Stamford Brook.
With one promised branch not opened, five branches in temporary closure and the loss of all the Crown offices we had, this is a parlous state of affairs. I ask the Minister specifically to look at the issue of temporary closures. I do not know how a closure of more than five years can be called temporary. Why is it impossible to find locations or postmasters for these places? I think the answer stares us in the face. It is that the terms and conditions that the Post Office is prepared to offer and the efforts it is prepared to put in are not sufficient to regenerate the network. We are being sold a myth that we have a stable network that is continuing at the same level as in previous years. In reality, we see more and more temporary closures that turn into permanent ones.
I hope the Minister agrees with that analysis and that he can respond to it, at least in part. This is a problem that demands his attention and that of the Government if the post office network is to survive into the future.