Institute for Apprenticeships and Technical Education (Transfer of Functions etc) Bill [HL]

Committee (2nd Day)

Good afternoon, my Lords. If there is a Division in the Chamber while we are sitting, which I do not expect, this Committee will adjourn as soon as the Division Bells are rung and resume after 10 minutes.

Amendment 18

18: After Clause 8, insert the following new Clause— “Report: functions transferred to the Secretary of StateWithin six months of the day on which this Act is passed and annually thereafter, the Secretary of State must lay before Parliament a report, explaining how they have discharged the functions transferred to them by virtue of this Act.”Member’s explanatory statement This amendment requires the Secretary of State to lay a report before Parliament at regular intervals detailing how they have used powers transferred to them by virtue of the Act.

My Lords, I offer my apologies for not being able to be present at the first day in Committee, but I have read the Hansard of that day.

My amendment is very similar to lots of others in the various groups, and I think they all point to the same thing, really. The Minister talked about the “narrow IfATE model”. I would have thought an executive agency within her department is a very tight model, and I can perhaps see why from her point of view, whereas on these Benches we would prefer a wider, more inclusive model. Having said that, I understand and can see the driving force behind what the Minister wants to achieve from the comments she has made. She said that the Government want

“to move away from the current, narrow IfATE model. Creating any further requirement for parliamentary approval before Skills England operates fully would frustrate the intentions of the Bill to enable a smooth transfer and the delegation of functions to Skills England”.—[Official Report, 21/11/24; col. GC 96.]

I suppose we are all anxious for progress in this area. The skills shortages are frightening. You have only to look at any particular industry. I have spoken to the construction industry, and the number of job vacancies and areas where it just cannot get skilled labour are holding back not just that industry but the country.

Given that we are where we are, and that I, no doubt like my colleagues, trotted along to the Bill office and said, “I’d like to put an amendment down on this”, to be told, “Oh no, it’s not in the scope of the Bill”—the Bill is very tightly written, so we are frustrated in that we cannot talk about or suggest for improvement some of the things in the area of skills that we wanted to—mine is a simple amendment. It simply says that the Secretary of State must lay before Parliament at regular intervals how they have used the powers transferred to them. It is a supportive and helpful amendment because you do not want, in 12 months’ or two years’ time, to say, “Do you know what? I’ve been let down by my executive agency. It has not delivered”. But if you are able to report to Parliament on a regular basis—it does not specify a time—then we can share those successes and concerns and maybe, from time to time, we can make some helpful suggestions.

My Lords, as the noble Lord, Lord Storey, said, this is part of a range of amendments all essentially about reporting and, as he accurately described, any number of us were wrestling with how to get something that looks like Skills England into the Bill. A way involved a reporting requirement— I was not allowed to mention Skills England in my amendment—in which I lifted some of the detail in paragraphs (a), (b), (c) and (d) from statements that the Government have made about Skills England and what they want it to be able to focus on and achieve. Hence the amendment lists:

“identification of skills gaps … the provision and funding of training to meet the skills needs of employers; … the development of occupational standards; …work with regional and local bodies to improve the skills of the workforce in England”.

I pay tribute to the noble Lord, Lord Ravensdale, for managing to get in something around the green skills agenda, which I tried to get in in my amendment but failed to draft it as skilfully as he clearly was able to do in order to get that in. I also support having a specific mention of the responsibilities in climate legislation and its relationship to green skills.

As I understand it, IfATE has a requirement to report to Parliament annually. It does so well and has shown its success, so the capacity is there, assuming that IfATE’s capacity will successfully transfer into the executive agency. So I do not see this as onerous, and it is important that we as Parliament should receive a report on the additional things that IfATE does not currently cover that would be covered by Skills England.

It is, incidentally, important for Parliament to have an opportunity to scrutinise the really important work that Skills England will be able to do. The annual report is a common mechanism that we all use when we are trying to get a little more traction for Parliament, but I think it is merited in this case. I hope that, reflecting on this group and the next, which is also about reporting in slightly different ways, the Minister will be able to give some consideration as to whether this is a relatively straightforward crumb of comfort to give some of us who have been slightly anxious about the absence of Skills England in the legislation.

My Lords, I shall speak to Amendment 35 in the name of my noble friend Lady Barran, to which I have added my support. Although we have only just started this debate, the range of reporting requirements set out in amendments in the group and mentioned in the speeches we have already heard is because we are all concerned about the lack of detail and statutory underpinning for Skills England currently in the Bill. We share concern that there needs to be greater clarity and purpose for the organisation in the legislation. It is certainly that lack of detail about the way the Government will decide their strategic priorities and create new technical qualifications, where IfATE has previously acted independently and consulted with employers and businesses, that is the rationale behind the amendment I am speaking to now.

The amendment is an attempt to understand how the Government will make these decisions and mandate Skills England to publish the process it intends to follow. I hope that, in her reply, the Minister can provide some further detail and reassurance to the many in the sector who are rightly concerned by the uncertainty that the Bill is creating—about the lack of detail, in particular, on what were previously established and well-understood processes. In order for Skills England to have the effect that we all hope, the decision-making process it undertakes and uses to decide which sectors will receive new technical education qualifications needs to be transparent, robust and retain the confidence of employers, training providers and, of course, the students themselves.

I hope that, in addition to Amendment 35, the Minister will give careful consideration to Amendments 23, 31 and 36 in this group, which, if adopted as a whole, would bring some much needed further clarification and credibility to the work of Skills England from the outset and, as the noble Lord, Lord Knight, just said, provide a suitable opportunity for parliamentary scrutiny of its work.

My Lords, it might be an appropriate time to mention my Amendment 22. There seems to be an unwritten law in Parliament that, if the noble Lord, Lord Addington, is taking part in an education debate, he has to mention special educational needs. Yet again, I remind the Committee of my interests in that area.

The opportunity for the cock-up school of history to strike has been pointed out here on numerous occasions. If you do not have an opportunity to write it in, it gets ignored and left behind. I am sure that a lawyer would be rubbing his hands at that, saying, “Yes, we have legislation that will mean you can get into it”, but, as we know, at the moment, special educational needs is an area that is a little too rich with lawyers and court cases. I hope that the Minister will be able to tell me that, in future, the Government will make sure that there is a clear and definable duty—and, indeed, limitations—for where special educational needs and disabilities have to be covered in getting qualifications, and that, where there are practical difficulties, we would find out what is going on.

The technology is moving on all the time. I thought the stuff that I was using for my day-to-day activity was cutting-edge 10 years ago and discovered that it is not, and that I should have an upgrade, often using stuff that is built into computers now. There is a need to address this. Exams are now so much easier to take by means other than pen and paper—indeed, it is the norm—but only if you make sure that the system works and is compatible with what is required out there, which means monitoring.

I hope the Minister will be able to give me an answer that means I can stop worrying, and that we can take the Pepper v Hart reference and use it in any future disputes. Unless we get somebody who is on the ball and being told they have to do it, history says that the aforementioned cock-up school of history will come in and we will make other lawyers happy and certain candidates unhappy.

My Lords, I never know what the protocols are for when to speak in Committee, but since both the amendments that I have added my name to in this group have been introduced, I will leap in. I hope the Minister does not think I am stalking her, having attended her evidence session this morning with the Industry and Regulators Committee, which was very interesting. I also look forward to reading the Government’s new White Paper Get Britain Working.

I have added my name to Amendment 18 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Storey, which I see as a catch-all for some of the reporting required from the Secretary of State by many of the amendments tabled. Of the 22 amendments we are discussing today, 12 would require the Secretary of State to produce reports, so I very much welcome the idea of the noble Lord, Lord Knight, that an annual report might cover most if not all of those requirements.

I have also added my name to his Amendment 23, another reporting requirement, which focuses on many of the central functions of Skills England, identifying skills gaps and shortages and promoting ways of addressing them. It includes looking at training needs. One thing I would add to that is the education side of the picture, not just the training stage: making young people aware of the skills they need to find rewarding employment suited to their abilities and of the range of opportunities available to them.

I also welcome the inclusion in the amendment of working with regional and local bodies. I would expect to see Skills England, as I think the Minister mentioned this morning, playing an active role in consolidating local skills improvement plans, to ensure that, together, they properly address national as well as local needs and seek to forge a joined-up approach between the different government departments, which might otherwise be tempted, as they have been in the past, to develop their own skills policies that may not add up to a coherent whole. I am pleased to add my support for those two amendments.

My Lords, I was pleased to add my name to Amendment 23 in the name of my noble friend Lord Knight, and I thank noble Lords who have supported Amendment 31 in my name. I said quite a lot last Thursday, which seems a lifetime ago—I was on so much medication I would have been disqualified from the Olympics—so I will try to keep it brief today.

Amendment 31 has elements which have already been overtaken by announcements by the Government, reinforced, at least as far as I can manage to access it, by the White Paper produced today. Thankfully, the foreword, signed by four Secretaries of State, mentions skills a lot and indicates the critical importance of the skills agenda to getting some of the 2.8 million people who are economically inactive back into work. It also mentions the youth guarantee and the reappraisal of priorities—for Skills England, I hope, but it is not entirely clear who is making decisions about what in terms of the growth and skills agenda and the new levy, and therefore who has actually made the decision in respect of what we are pressing for and what has been pressed for publicly in terms of prioritising entry-level and foundation apprenticeships.

Your Lordships’ Industry and Regulators Committee, chaired by my noble friend Lady Taylor of Bolton, wrote a letter, because of the timings, to the Secretary of State relating to skills for the future and raised a number of issues about wealth, work, health and skills plans and how they would gel together. It mentioned the youth guarantee, which I have touched on, and exactly what, who and how the growth and skills levy would be applied, and who would be making the decisions. The reason that is relevant to this legislation is that, were Skills England to be on the face of the Bill, there should be clear reporting mechanisms to Parliament, not just to the Secretary of State and the Minister, who is already doing an excellent job in this—I am not saying that just to get a decent reply, but she is doing a good job.

However, Skills England lies somewhere in no man’s land. If noble Lords do not believe me, they should believe Philip Augar, chair and author of the Augar report five years ago. He recently wrote as though Skills England was an arm’s-length executive agency rather than an executive agency within the department. There is enormous confusion out there about exactly what the relationship of Skills England is to the department and the work that we are transferring from IfATE, initially to the department and then presumably to the body embodied in the department called Skills England, which is not allowed to be on the face of the Bill.

We will come back to that in group 2. However, I hope that my noble friend will feel that, on Report, the Government can bring forward their own amendments to ensure that we reflect what everyone on this Committee last Thursday and this afternoon appears to want. It is not a big ask.

People really resent going back to 1997, so I am always cautious about doing so, but when we first got in in 1997, the drafters and parts of the Department for Education and Employment, as it was then, told me that, because the Bill we initially brought forward, which was the first of a number of education Bills, dealt with grant-maintained schools and structures, the Bill should have “structures” in the title and that the word “standards” was not relevant to the Bill as drafted. We had the most enormous tussle, including with officials—God bless them; they had a way about them—and particularly with the drafters, about what that Bill should be called. In the end, we prevailed because we wanted the Bill to describe what the overall programme, objectives and mission, if I may use that word, were about. They were about standards. In the end, it was called the School Standards and Framework Bill. Everything that we were endeavouring to do was about standards.

If everything that we are now endeavouring to do is to make Skills England work as an executive agency and entity, and if it is going to have the standing and status that we all want and be able to reach out and be an inclusive—as opposed to an exclusive—agency touching all the partners, we need this in statute.

I will leave it at that for this particular group of amendments, but I am keeping my fingers crossed that my noble friend the Minister and the Secretary of State will simply go back to those who say that one cannot widen this Bill and bring forward on Report an amendment that does nothing other than transfer IfATE, and say to them, “I am terribly sorry. When you are in government, this is all about the primacy of Parliament”. We have debated that over the last decade to infinity. It is all about whether the Government are in government or whether, to coin a famous phrase, they are in office but not in power. I put it no stronger than that.

My Lords, I just want to give some context on IfATE being a statutory body, since I chair it. Statutory bodies take their responsibility very seriously when they issue reports to Parliament. First, when we go through that detail at IfATE annually, it is a rigorous and detailed process. It is absolutely evidenced and fact-checked. I would like to see that level of reporting, or even more, done in Skills England. I will not stand up and say that I am the expert on mechanisms, but I am concerned to think that that level and standard of reporting will not happen under a new, enhanced body.

Secondly, it is important that we do not lose sight, during the progress of the Bill, of what this transfer of powers is going to do. By transferring the powers of IfATE to the Secretary of State, we transfer the approval of technical qualifications as a whole—an end-to-end process that is understood and respected by employers and understood by colleges. Everyone must understand how qualifications will be arrived at and approved. I would like some assurances from the Minister that that process of end-to-end scrutiny with employers will continue and be enhanced in Skills England.

My Lords, I am pleased to speak in support of my noble friend Lord Blunkett’s important Amendment 31 on apprenticeships and the growth and skills levy. Although it is important that apprenticeships are available to all age groups, thus ensuring that lifelong learning plays a key role in skills development in the years ahead, I am particularly keen that more young people should see them as a first step on a career ladder. That is clearly set out in Amendment 31.

Unfortunately, the bright new dawn that many of us expected when the apprenticeship levy was introduced in 2017 has failed to materialise. Noble Lords will be familiar with the analysis commissioned on behalf of the Association of Colleges earlier this year, which showed —I think this was for 2022-23—that some 160,000 fewer apprenticeships were started than in 2017. You might ask “How on earth can that possibly be the case?”, but it is. That decline was particularly alarming because it disproportionately impacted on those most in need of training, particularly younger people and those from disadvantaged backgrounds.

There were regional aspects to it as well, because the decline was particularly prevalent in regions of the country such as the north of England, which traditionally had high levels of apprenticeships, and among SMEs. There are particular structural issues with the levy for SMEs, but that is for another day. That decline in the apprenticeship statistics must be reversed and returned at least to the pre-2017 levels, so I was pleased to hear my noble friend the Minister say on Second Reading that foundation apprenticeships are to be developed as an alternative route for young people who may have faced barriers in the past.

The noble Lord, Lord Storey, recounted how difficult it had been to get some of his amendments tabled, because the words “Skills England” could not be used. In today’s Marshalled List, any time that “Skills England” is mentioned it is in quotation marks. It is almost as if it is some soiled rag that needs to be picked up with a glove and held at some distance from your body. It is astonishing. Why should we be so afraid to say that, when we all know what we are talking about here? Let us just be open about it.