To ask the Leader of the House what plans she has, if any, to establish a modernisation committee to review the effectiveness, efficiency and cost of the House of Lords’ legislative procedures.
My Lords, it is helpful to review and consider the effectiveness of our procedures. I will continue to advocate for any changes through agreement in the usual channels and through the Procedure and Privileges Committee. I have no plans to set up a modernisation committee at the moment.
My Lords, just over 15 years ago, there was considerable dissatisfaction here with the way our scrutiny work was being performed. The Leader’s Group was set up and reported in 2011, recommending improved focus and better organisation for more effective and efficient scrutiny. In the light of recent events, some of us have come to the view that it is high time again that we had a look at the way that we are undertaking our legislative procedures. I know that the Leader has been taking some steps to effect changes and wants to use the Procedure Committee, but I believe that we should have a more effective and fundamental review, in the way that we had in 2011, and that this would be better established by a separate Select Committee. I hope she will review her position on that and move forward soon.
I always hate to disappoint my noble friend. There are many strengths to the work that we do in here on scrutiny, but I agree that, as it draws to a close, the current Session of Parliament has presented some challenges and at times has tested our procedures. I am always interested to hear proposals from noble Lords across the House. However, it is quite often the case that I have three noble Lords talk to me and give me five different ways of doing something. It is quite hard to find consensus at times. We do need to look at these things, and the Procedure Committee is a good way forward, but we will not stop there. This morning, I convened one of our regular meetings with the usual channels, where we discuss these issues, and the Lord Speaker came along as well. We want to give attention to these issues, but I am not convinced that the committee that my noble friend suggests is the best way of doing so.
My Lords, leaving aside the question of whether that largely meaningless word “modernisation” is an appropriate one to use in this context, could the Leader of the House, in her consideration of these issues, give priority to effectiveness over efficiency? When it comes to legislation, Governments love efficiency, but it is very often inimical to exacting scrutiny and challenge, which is the role of your Lordships.
The noble Lord has a good point; I am not sure that there is necessarily a difference. However, how effective we are in managing our time and the issues that we want to raise is a key issue for this House. How we use our time, whether we are making the best use of our time, and whether we are ensuring that the scrutiny we give to legislation is proportionate and will be listened to is a matter not just for the Government but for every Member of this House. If the Government are to listen, we have to play our part. A self-regulating House is also a House that has to show some self-restraint to ensure that our voice is heard in the right places.
My Lords, does the Leader agree that we do not need a modernising committee to tell us that frequent sittings past midnight are not the best way to do business? As far as I am concerned, it is not an efficient way of operating, and it fails a duty of care to not only staff but Members. In the new Session, if we could work more closely and, to paraphrase the Chief Whip, “talk less, vote quicker”, we would become more efficient and perhaps do business in a more timely manner, which would mean that the exceptional after-midnight sittings are the exception, not the rule.
My Lords, I think the whole House would agree that very late nights should be the exception. The noble Lord suggests we talk less—I have to say one of the sadnesses of this role of mine is that I talk less in this House than I did before I did this role. But it is about making effective use of the time we have to make our points, have our debates and reach conclusions. There are times when we have felt that debates have been a little longer than they needed to be, but at no point do we in Government want to take steps to limit the scrutiny; we just want to do it more effectively.
My noble friend Lord Brooke of Alverthorpe has already referred to the work of the committee in 2010-11. One of the recommendations—and there were quite a few that were not implemented—was that the House start on Mondays, Tuesdays and Wednesdays at 2 pm. That was considered a step far too far in 2010. Fifteen years on, can the Leader tell us whether the time might be ripe now, finally, for looking at and rethinking the time the House may start its business and maybe finding a way for us to use our time and expertise more effectively?
My Lords, before answering this Question I looked with some care at the recommendations from the Goodlad committee, and a number were not accepted at the time, including that Ministers should be able to answer Questions in either House, that the Lord Privy Seal should have a dedicated Question Time, and that there should be a more proactive role for the Lord Speaker. Those did not find favour with the House at that time—I hesitate to look at the Lord Speaker’s face at this point.
The issue of how we use our time is really important, and I draw the noble Baroness’s attention to the next report from the Procedure and Privileges Committee—which I think is coming to the House on Thursday—about using time. The committee is recommending from all parties that we look at the time we spend debating SIs and that some extra time be available in Grand Committee, including, where required, a sitting that would start on Tuesday mornings. It is not about curtailing or extending time; let us use the time we have as effectively as we possibly can. The other thing I am keen to do is give certainty to Members about when business is happening and how long business will take, because that helps Members participate.
I understand the principle behind the Question; there is too much repetitive talk in this House, often between different stages. But that is a matter for restraint on all sides. Will the noble Baroness opposite accept that I welcome very much the initiatives that she has been taking in the usual channels, and I support them in all defined ways to make our proceedings more expedient and work well for everybody? Will she also support the principle that I held to when I was Leader: not to seek in any way to limit the freedoms of individual Members in this House to exercise their rights? It is through those freedoms, not shared by MPs, that this House has become the great revising Chamber that it is.
I do not seek to curtail freedoms. I do not know whether there is anything specific the noble Lord has in mind. In a House that is self-regulating, we also seek self-restraint. That self-restraint is something that the whole House wants. The certainty for Members that the House is run in an orderly way—which was part of the point of our discussions in the usual channels this morning—is important. It is beholden on the whole House, as well as the leadership of the House, to ensure that Members abide by the conventions and do not feel they are something we can bypass when we feel like it.
There is probably not much I can say that is helpful to the noble Baroness. She will recall that the measures in the Labour Party manifesto are in three stages. The first stage, which was the removal of the hereditary Peers, will be completed at the end of Prorogation; for the second stage, we are awaiting the report from the committee looking at participation requirements of and retirement from the House; the third stage will be a matter for the Labour Party to progress in policy terms, and I cannot give her an update on that at this stage.
Does the Leader of the House welcome, as I do, what I think is a new spirit of intention, moving from proceedings to services that support Members, to engage with and respond to Members? I think that is led by the new Lord Speaker and the new Clerk of the Parliaments. I think it is very welcome that we are going to be listened to more about the services and how they are delivered in this House.
I did not quite catch that, but I think that the noble Baroness referred to services of the House. My impression is that the current Lord Speaker and the past Lord Speaker and the Administration of the House have been talking and engaging more with Members, and that should continue. I will certainly keep an eye on that, because Members have an interest in how those services are delivered and how to make best use of them.