That this House do not insist on its Amendment 1, to which the Commons have disagreed for their Reason 1A.
1A: Because the Commons consider that it is more appropriate for section 2 of the House of Lords Act 1999 to be repealed than amended in the manner proposed.
My Lords, I will also speak to Motions B, C and D.
Before starting on the debate on each Motion before the House, I thought it would be helpful to set the debate in context and provide an update on discussions and progress since we last debated the Bill. During our 41 hours of debate in Committee and on Report, it was clear that, when dealing with this first immediate step of Lords reform, the House was keen to make progress more quickly on the issues of retirement and participation. Indeed, I think I am correct in saying that there were more amendments and more hours of debate on these issues that were not in the Bill than the issues that were in the Bill.
As Leader of the House, I listened carefully and committed to establishing a cross-party Select Committee to establish these issues and report back to government. That Retirement and Participation Committee is now firmly established and is actively considering how to implement our manifesto commitments on a retirement age and a participation requirement. I understand that the committee has received a considerable amount of interest and input from noble Lords across the House, as was intended.
If noble Lords are worried about progress on this issue, then fear not. As I have discovered, the House has been able to take steps on this issue in the past. In 1669, Members who failed to attend were fined £40 a day. That is just over £7,500 in today’s money. In 1820, a fine of £100 a day—nearly £8,500 in today’s money—was levied for non-attendance at Queen Caroline’s trial. In 1679, the Sergeant-at-Arms was ordered to take non- attending Peers into custody and bring them to Westminster.
Despite such support from around the House, I did not recommend those precedents to the committee. In all seriousness, this is an opportunity for the House itself to bring forward proposals, take action and show that we can lead reforms rather than resist them. We look forward to receiving the committee’s findings in the coming months.
Turning to the Bill, there were four substantive amendments passed by this House and reviewed by the other place. I was pleased that they agreed with the amendments on the powers of attorney to allow for dignified retirement in certain specific circumstances. I welcome the work that took place across the House to deliver this small but important reform. These amendments demonstrate how we as a House can come together to bring about change. The Procedure and Privileges Committee has already considered and agreed the draft Standing Orders, which will be presented to the House for approval so that they can take effect as soon as possible after Royal Assent.
A further amendment stated that all Lords Ministers should be paid a ministerial salary and prohibited future unpaid Ministers from being eligible for membership of this House. The Government rejected this amendment as it was not relevant to the Bill. Although it raised an important principle, it did not deliver the change needed. The Government nevertheless believe that it is right that Ministers be paid for the job they are doing. For some years, the practice of appointing Ministers without a salary, particularly to the Lords, has grown, reaching a peak in 2023 of 13 unpaid Lords Ministers out of 30. Being a Lords Minister is a tough job, as well as being an absolute privilege. Lords Ministers have the responsibility of their individual portfolios, but they also fulfil their duty to this House by answering questions, managing legislation and speaking in debates on any and all issues affecting their department.
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Making this change, we are committed to ensuring that the House can continue to function effectively. I have been consistently clear that this has never been about hampering the ability of the Opposition to scrutinise the Government. The Government have had constructive conversations with the Official Opposition on completing the passage of this legislation. Having had those discussions, we appreciate the case that has been made by the Official Opposition that they rely significantly on the experience of hereditary Peers, particularly on the Front Bench but also in committees. Therefore, an agreed number of life peerages will be allocated to the Official Opposition—and to the Cross-Benchers, who made a similar case in relation to experience.
As always, it will be for the party opposite to decide which individuals, from within or outside the House, it wishes to nominate for peerages, subject to vetting by the House of Lords Appointments Commission on the basis of propriety. Your Lordships will be aware that the Liberal Democrats have already nominated some from their ranks for life peerages from their normal allocation of peerages.
This is an agreement made in good faith for the proper functioning of the House and the Official Opposition. As I said when I was giving evidence to the Public Administration and Constitutional Affairs Committee prior to the last general election, I believe that this House works best when we adhere to the conventions of the House and that the two main parties are of a similar size. After the end of this Session, no Peer will be a Member of this House purely on the basis of a hereditary right.
I briefly turn to the final amendment, which sought to create a new form of statutory non-sitting life peerage. As with the issue of ministerial salaries, this issue is not relevant to the legislation and the elected Chamber voted to disagree with these amendments by a majority of 331 to 73 and 338 to 74 respectively. That was a clear signal from our colleagues in the other place. Noble Lords will not be surprised that the Government’s position to oppose these amendments has not changed, and I urge the House to reject them.
Our honours system already recognises and promotes outstanding contributions from individuals across the UK. As I have said before, being appointed as a life Peer is not only an honour; it also brings a responsibility to serve the second Chamber and to use your achievements, knowledge and wisdom to contribute to the House and for the benefit of the nation. This is something the Government want to encourage through the introduction of a participation requirement, and the Select Committee is now considering that in detail. Adding another layer on the system through this amendment would send the wrong signal that life peerages could be granted with no responsibilities. Given recent events, I am sure the public would view us quite critically if your Lordships’ House continued to push this issue. I therefore urge the House to support the Government’s position in rejecting these amendments.
To conclude, this House, as a revising Chamber, has provided detailed scrutiny of this important Bill. The Bill is better for that scrutiny. The House put forward its amendments to the other place, asking it to consider these changes to the legislation. As a result, important amendments have been made so that colleagues can retire with dignity when they lose capacity. The elected Chamber has clearly indicated its position and rejected the other amendments. Following constructive discussion with the Official Opposition, I have indicated how the Government will respond to those issues. With this agreement, I look forward to the Bill completing its parliamentary passage. I beg to move.
My Lords, I thank the Leader of the House for setting out the Government’s position with such courtesy and clarity. Our position on this side has been clear from the very outset, and that is that we accepted and accept the Government’s mandate to end the entry of people into this place by virtue of the hereditary principle. That is why I and the noble Earl, Lord Kinnoull, proposed the immediate suspension of elections in respect for that mandate. In reality, no one has come here by virtue of the hereditary principle in this Parliament.
I also said that we believed there was a better way forward, now and in the future, for this House to be found by agreement and constructive co-operation, and that we thought that shared principles of how things should be done in this place, building on the Salisbury doctrine, should be agreed and restated. In my submission, those are endeavours that must continue and we on this side are committed to that constructive work.
We did argue, and frankly we still believe, that expulsion of sitting Members from a sitting Parliament was unreasonable and would provide a dangerous precedent for the future. A Prime Minister should not choose his or her opponents in Parliament. It does not happen in other democracies, and it should not happen here. Yet after this example, I fear that it may happen again. I beg to be proved wrong.
Mindful of this, your Lordships’ House did, as the noble Baroness has reminded us, vote for so-called grandfather rights. The majority of your Lordships asked that those who sat here among us and had served this House faithfully should be allowed to stay on the same basis as other Peers. But the Government used their mighty majority in another place to overturn that request. Now, of course, I regret that; but, as I said in my first speech from this Dispatch Box as Leader of the Opposition in this Parliament, I believe we must dial down on eternal ping-pong. So, I have advised my noble friends on this side to accept what for many is, I know, a bitter pill. We will not seek to divide the House today.
My Lords, I will be brief. Finding the balance between, first, the Government’s 2024 manifesto, secondly, the maintenance of the separation of powers among the three legs of our constitutional stool—the Executive, Parliament and the judiciary—and, thirdly, the proper staffing and working of our House has taken a considerable amount of time. That is not surprising, given the large number of people involved in thinking about these matters.
In the lead of this thinking have been the Leader of our House and the shadow Leader. I pay tribute to them both for having found that balance and thank them and the many involved. This means that I strongly support the Leader of the House in her four Motions, in particular—taking only a brief loop—Motion B. As mentioned, surfacing only last week, the Ministerial Salaries (Amendment) Bill is something that I warmly welcome. From the perspective of our Chamber, it is overdue.
I note as well that the progress of this Bill has given rise to that important committee, the Retirement and Participation Committee, which will bring further reform into focus when it reports in the summer. I wish it well in its endeavours.
On behalf of the many hereditaries, as I am a hybrid function these days, I thank the Leader of the House and the shadow Leader for their very warm words about the hereditaries. I feel that every hereditary arrives here really trying to do the right thing and to work hard on behalf of the House. I feel that they will hold their heads high in future years, whatever happens to them personally.
In closing, I note only that the mechanics of tidying things up will take a period of time. I know that those involved in this are moving with as much speed as possible. Accordingly, I hope that people will be patient. I hope also that the House can now move on from this difficult period back to our normal diet of scrutinising the Government and their legislation.
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Lords Ministers’ work is impressive. I know that past Leaders of the House have also raised the issue of unpaid Ministers when they have been in government. I am pleased to report to the House that this Government introduced the Ministerial Salaries (Amendment) Bill last week in the House of Commons to increase the number of ministerial salaries that can be paid under law from 109 to 120, reflecting the average size of government since 2010. The cap on the number of Commons Ministers will not be changed and remains at 95, thus ensuring a minimum of 25 paid Ministers in this House. Of course, the allocation of ministerial salaries is ultimately at the discretion of the Prime Minister. This is a significantly better position for this House, recognising the important work of our Ministers. Given the support for that amendment on Report, I hope that that Bill will be welcomed by your Lordships’ House. As a result, I ask that tonight we reject this amendment as being unnecessary.
Further amendments from this House provided for all the existing hereditary Peers to remain, as a matter of right, and to continue to sit in this House as hereditary Peers. Those amendments would allow existing hereditary Peers to remain for decades to come. The amendment on this issue, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Parkinson, was extensively debated in the other place. However, the level of support for these amendments, including from the Official Opposition, was notably limited in both debates and in the vote. Only 77 MPs voted to keep these amendments in the Bill, and this was decisively rejected by a margin of 259.
The Government are, and always have been, committed to removing the right of hereditary Peers to sit and vote in the House of Lords, as was stated in our manifesto. This has never been about the contribution of individuals; it is about the underlying principle, agreed by Parliament over 25 years ago, that no one should sit in our Parliament by way of an inherited title. Over a quarter of a century later, hereditary Peers remain while meaningful reform has stagnated. We have a duty to find a way forward.
I recognise the positive arrangement approved by the Prime Minister to avoid an absolute cliff edge that would otherwise result in this place by a total cull of some of the most hard-working Members of this House. That builds on a statesmanlike decision to enable the noble Earl, Lord Kinnoull, and others to stay. Who here truly objects to that?
This will mean many difficult decisions for those on this side and on the Cross Benches. For dozens of our fellows on this side and on the Cross Benches, April will be a cruel month of cold going; but that is how it will be. For others, the passage of this Bill will be a matter of high satisfaction; and that too is how it will be. But let us treat each other’s feelings with respect. That is the way of this House.
I remember as if it were yesterday sitting in the Box, hearing the wise words of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Irvine of Lairg, in this Chamber on 30 March 1999. He said that a “compromise” had been reached,
“binding in honour on all those who have come to give it their assent”.—[Official Report, 30/3/1999; col. 207.]
Like all compromises, it does not give complete satisfaction to anyone. That is the nature of compromise, and so let it be today with this arrangement.
I welcome what the noble Baroness said about responding to your Lordships’ wishes on power of attorney as a way to retirement. That was a proposal from the noble Lord, Lord Ashton of Hyde—not the least of his many services to this House, and I trust not the last.
I welcome the action being taken in another place, which the noble Baroness told us about, to enable all Lords Ministers to be paid. As the House well knows, I, as Leader of the House, believed that the practice of restricting many opportunities of service on the Government Front Bench to those who have private means had no place in the 20th century, let alone the 21st. I tried to secure pay for all Lords Ministers when I was Leader of the House, but sadly I was blocked—first by my own party and then by the party opposite. So I welcome the new Bill that the noble Baroness has told us about and assure her that we will support it.
I am disappointed that the Government see no place for life peerages outside your Lordships’ House. I continue to believe that that would be a useful reform. Frankly, we do not need people who come here for a title and then do precious little; on that, I agree with the noble Baroness. I think the time for that reform may come, but that is for another day.
So here we are, at the end of well over seven centuries of service by hereditary Peers in this Parliament. They helped to create our Parliament and they brought it back to life in 1660. In this House, 250 years ago, the elder Pitt called for a “just settlement” for the American colonies. Well, that did not work out very well, did it? Here, in 1807, Grenville secured the slave trade abolition Act. In 1832, Grey moved the first reform Act. Here too the illustrious ancestor of the noble Duke, the Duke of Wellington, passed Catholic emancipation.
Many thousands of Peers served their nation here and thousands of improvements to law were made. It was not all a stereotypical history of reaction in ermine. Many of those people no doubt were flawed, but, for the most part, they served their nation faithfully and well. This Bill draws a line under all that, and it is drawn, but we remember them and we thank them, just as we thank and will always remember those of our comrades in this House, on all Benches, who are being removed under this Bill today. Many of us on all sides will miss you—if I may use the “you”.
Chapter 1 of Labour’s manifesto plans for removals is now over. As the noble Baroness reminded us, chapter 2—debates on the promised removal of all Peers over 80 within three years, as the manifesto said—is now opened. The shadow that hung over the 92 for the last two years now rather lours over hundreds more among us. We welcome the Select Committee being set up by the noble Baroness and we await the outcome of its deliberations and all that will follow. There will be difficult waters, but the Labour manifesto mandate is clear and stark. This side will address whatever comes in a constructive spirit.
The House of the Life Peerages Act 1958 now goes forward alone. There will be no more so-called indefensible others to blame. We will be judged in the years and perhaps decades ahead on how we each acquit ourselves. For my part, I hope and believe that we will do so with the dignity, courtesy and high sense of duty that our departing hereditary colleagues sought to display. As we go forward, we on this side will always join hands across the Chamber in a positive manner to contribute to that and ensure the effective operation of this great House.