To ask His Majesty’s Government, further to the answer by Lord Khan of Burnley on 17 June (HL Deb cols 1897–8), whether they have investigated the role of Bureau Veritas as the examiner of the cladding and inspector of the lifts at Grenfell Tower.
My Lords, I thank my noble friend Lord Rooker for continuing to probe on this important matter. The Grenfell Tower Inquiry thoroughly and independently examined the cause of the fire and the roles of various actors. While it was referenced in the final report, the inquiry did not criticise Bureau Veritas for its role in lift inspections at Grenfell or cladding testing. Any legal or investigative matters now sit with the appropriate authorities.
I thank my noble friend for that, but is she aware that Bureau Veritas staff were inside flat 16 with the London Fire Brigade, as a contractor, before 1 am on the night of the fire, and that Bureau Veritas’s contract to inspect the lifts was out of time during the fire? On the final point, is the Minister aware that the firm that issued the quality management ISO 9001 certification for the cladding on Grenfell, made by Arconic, was Bureau Veritas in Philadelphia? I have looked at all the sites and I have not found anywhere any declarations of possible conflict of interest on all these points—that one firm was involved in so many aspects. I have only used three; there are other aspects that I could have used.
To respond to my noble friend’s important points, the Grenfell Tower Inquiry thoroughly and independently examined the cause of the fire and the roles of various actors and set out its findings publicly. Although referenced within the final report, the inquiry did not criticise Bureau Veritas for its role in lift inspection or cladding testing. The ISO 9001 certification and cladding assessment certification are two different things, and it is important that we do not confuse them. ISO 9001 is an international standard widely used to assess a company’s quality management system; it is not specific to a product. Bureau Veritas certified Arconic to ISO 9001 standards, but the product certification for the cladding that was used on Grenfell Towers was issued by the British Board of Agrément. The inquiry finding suggests that Arconic concealed test data from the British Board of Agrément. Any legal or investigative matters relating to this now rightly sit with the appropriate authorities.
My Lords, further to the Question from the noble Lord, Lord Rooker, on cladding, data published by the noble Baroness’s department a few days ago showed that of the 5,214 high-rise blocks with unsafe cladding, eight years after Grenfell over 50% had not started remediation, meaning that thousands of families are living in unsafe flats. What reassurances can the noble Baroness give to those people?
I thank the noble Lord, Lord Young. Over eight years on from the Grenfell tragedy, there is no justification for any building to remain unsafe. Our goal is clear: to remove all barriers to remediation, get buildings fixed faster and allow residents to feel safe in their homes. That is why in December last year we launched the Remediation Acceleration Plan, a comprehensive strategy to fix buildings faster, identify those still at risk and support affected residents. In July this year we published an update to this plan, introducing further measures to remove the barriers, strengthen accountability and expedite remediation. At present, 57% of all 18 metre-plus buildings identified with unsafe cladding have started or completed remediation, and for 18 metre-plus buildings with the ACM cladding, such as that in Grenfell, 97% of the identified buildings have started. We need to move quickly on this one to make sure that people are safe in their homes and feel safe.
My Lords, prosecutions of those whose decisions led to the 72 deaths at Grenfell Tower—eight years ago, as we have heard—are not expected until 2027. Does the Minister agree that justice delayed is justice denied? Can she confirm that prosecutions will begin in 2027, and can any remedies be implemented now to help those still at the financial mercy of insurance companies?
The police have said that this will take time. I know that all those who are victims and survivors will want this to move forward as quickly as possible—I completely understand their concern about that. This is one of the largest and most legally complex investigations ever conducted by the Metropolitan Police, with 180 officers and staff dedicated to the investigation. Those responsible absolutely must be held to account, and we fully support the police in this important work. That is why Ministers have agreed to provide up to £9.3 million to support the Met with additional costs of the criminal investigation in this year. We want this to move as quickly as possible, but it is very important that the investigation is conducted thoroughly and properly.
My Lords, what assurances can the Minister give that the fire performance data supplied by manufacturers to certification bodies is independently validated before approval?
My Lords, that is part of the Remediation Acceleration Plan, and we will be looking very closely at how we properly validate. The noble Lord will be aware of the changes that were made to building control inspection under his Government. We need to move forward with a proper system of building control inspection so that we can make sure that the buildings that are constructed are safe. We have also announced some significant changes to the building safety regulator, with stronger leadership, new governance and a new fast-track process, which we hope will speed up building control for new build applications by bringing in in-house specialists. I hope that that will drive this forward as fast as possible.
My Lords, is the Minister aware that almost all of the £97 million allocated to the Scottish Government for remediation has been diverted to other functions, particularly some of their vanity projects? Will she have a word with her colleagues in the Cabinet Office and the Treasury to see what can be done to stop this misappropriation of money?
Of course, housing is devolved in Scotland, and it is up to Scottish Ministers to do what they need to. I am sure that my colleague from the Treasury sitting on the Bench with me has heard what my noble friend said and will take the necessary action.
I thank the noble Baroness for her reply and take this opportunity to associate these Benches with the earlier comments and expressions of gratitude to the noble Lord, Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede, for his ministerial service— proof, if it were needed, of the invaluable role hereditary members continue to play in this House.
The Grenfell inquiry report made it clear that Arconic, Saint-Gobain and Kingspan all had a direct responsibility for the death of the victims in that horrendous tragedy. Can the Minister assure us that the Government have no commercial relationship with any of those firms, government agencies will not enter into commercial relationships with any of those firms, and Ministers will not appear at events sponsored by those firms complicit in murder?
Before I answer the noble Lord’s question, I thank him for his comments about my noble friend Lord Ponsonby, but I point out to him that my noble friend is in fact a life Peer. We truly value his service.
In response to the question about public contracts, we are, of course, absolutely committed to exploring all available options to take action to hold to account those companies which were criticised by the inquiry. In that spirit, the Cabinet Office said it would launch investigations into seven organisations, using the new debarment powers that came in the Procurement Act 2023. I have to say, however, that the Met Police and the Crown Prosecution Service informed the Cabinet Office that debarment investigations might unintentionally prejudice the criminal investigation, so the Cabinet Office then concluded that it was right to pause the debarment investigations while the criminal investigation was going on. However, I completely understand the noble Lord’s point, and we will do all we can to make sure that those who are responsible are brought to account.
Does the Minister agree that one of the reasons for such widespread disillusion in our society about public life is the failure of both companies and people to be held properly to account after a disaster? Looking not just at Grenfell but more widely, what more could the Government do to reassure the general public that both companies and individual people will be held responsible when things go wrong?