Defibrillators in Police Vehicles

I beg to move,

That this House has considered defibrillators in police vehicles.

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Sir John. I am delighted to have secured this debate on defibrillators in the back of police vehicles. I have been pushing for this for some time, and it is helpful that the debate is taking place on International Paramedics Day, when we celebrate the work of people who intervene to save lives.

I pay tribute to Naomi Rees-Issitt, who tragically lost her son Jay on new year’s day 2022. Jay was unlucky in a number of ways. He was unlucky to have a cardiac arrest at the age of 18. He was extremely unlucky that the defibrillator that could have saved his life was only two minutes away, locked behind the gates of a school. His friends who were with him supported him with cardiopulmonary resuscitation, but he was unlucky that the ambulance was significantly delayed. Jay was unlucky that there was a stabbing incident in Coventry that evening, which meant that many ambulances had been relocated to deal with that incident. Jay was also unlucky that there was a backlog of patients being unloaded from ambulances at the nearest hospital, which, again, resulted in delays to intervention for his cardiac arrest.

The ambulance arrived 24 minutes after Jay’s collapse. Sadly, it was too late. The police vehicle turned up 14 minutes after his collapse, however. According to the coroner, it was a one-in-a-million situation: if there had been intervention with a defibrillator at that point, Jay would have recovered from his cardiac arrest. That demonstrates the need for defibrillators in the back of response vehicles. They could have a serious impact, saving hundreds of lives up and down the United Kingdom.

My hon. Friend is making a fantastic speech. Does he agree that as well as defibrillators, there should be bleed kits in the back of police cars? Yeovil town council has introduced bleed kits across the town, as well as defibrillators. Does he agree that we need both in police vehicles?

I have raised that very issue with Devon and Cornwall constabulary. Following an awful incident, a grieving mother is trying to ensure that we have stab kits across the United Kingdom. As I am sure my hon. Friend has done, I have corresponded with Avon and Somerset police on this issue. Bleed kits can save lives. I have had conversations with the security staff who support us. It is quite shocking to learn what they have in their bags in case there is an incident at an MP’s constituency surgery or another event. Such measures should not be focused solely on people like us; we need to make sure that there are opportunities to support people out in the community.

Going back to the serious issue of cardiac arrests, the medical evidence shows that for every minute without intervention, there is a 10% reduction in survival for individuals.

I commend the hon. Gentleman for securing this debate. By equipping every police vehicle with a device, such as the CU Medical iPAD SP1 or the Defibtech Lifeline AUTO, we will expand our chain of survival on the roads. Our police officers are trained in cardiopulmonary resuscitation. Does the hon. Gentleman agree that we must give them the physical tools to ensure that when a father, mother or child collapses on our streets, they have the best possible fighting chance of returning home to their loved ones—the very thing he is trying to achieve?

The hon. Member makes a valuable point. Resuscitation Council UK highlights that if there is an intervention within three to five minutes, the chances of survival are between 50% and 70%. It really is all about timing and how we can significantly impact that.

A survey that the all-party parliamentary group for defibrillators undertook with all police forces across the country found that less than 10% of response vehicles have defibrillators as standard. That is really disturbing, because the police are often the first on the scene, as was the case with Jay. Naomi’s Our Jay charity has done stellar work in assisting both Bedfordshire and Warwickshire police to get defibrillators in a number of their vehicles. That had an immediate impact on saving lives. Within days of them being put in the back of vehicles, there was clear evidence of the impact they made. I hope the Minister will take that into account.

Another important element is that when mapping out where defibrillators are in communities, we often find they are in more affluent areas. The more deprived communities have fewer defibrillators, for whatever reason.

The hon. Member is giving an impassioned speech. I share his sadness about the loss of Jay, whom he mentioned in his opening remarks.

In my constituency we did a defib dash, where I encouraged constituents to understand where their nearest community defibrillator was. The average return journey was 12 minutes by foot. In semi-rural constituencies like mine, adding a defib to the back of emergency vehicles would make a massive difference. Does the hon. Member agree that rural and semi-rural constituencies face an issue of access to defibs?

The police are so often the first on the scene. It ends up being a postcode lottery, whether it is because of communities are rural, coastal or more deprived. I say to the Minister that by getting defibrillators in the back of police response vehicles, we will remove some of that postcode lottery from the system, because the police would be there to support people in their hour of need. They will also have the tools to support people more powerfully, rather than simply being able to undertake CPR. That will be a massive change for people.

I have talked to a local Devon charity called Jay’s Aim, which offers support across the south-west of England. It undertakes training for community groups on this issue and provides boxes in towns where people can access defibrillators. It shared with me that a number of the defibrillators boxes are, for good reason, hammered by the police. When the police go to an incident that may need a defibrillator, they quite rightly grab and use the one in a box near the police station. The charity has to replace loads of pads as a result. If that is not a canary in the coalmine, showing that there is a need for our policing service to be equipped with defibrillators in all response vehicles, I do not know what is.

In conclusion, I hope the Minister will ensure that we take the luck out of these situations and, through public policy, make real changes that impact on people’s lives. I am aware that in response to a written question on 27 April she said she was considering the pros and cons of providing defibrillators in the back of police vehicles, and would set out next steps. I hope she will use this debate to clearly set out some of those steps. I encourage her to ensure that it is not just standard but mandatory for all police response vehicles to have defibrillators.

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Sir John. I congratulate the hon. Member for Torbay (Steve Darling) on securing this important debate. I am grateful to him for doing so, and to other Members for contributing. I know that if this had been a wider debate, other Members would probably have wanted to speak in it—several Members feel very strongly about this issue.

The hon. Member for Torbay talked at length about the Our Jay Foundation and about the death of Jamie Rees, or Jay, who died when he was just 18. I have had the privilege of meeting Jamie’s mum, stepdad and godmother on two occasions. I discussed what they are doing and trying to achieve, and what the Home Office can perhaps do. For someone to be able to experience the death of their child and put it to positive use, in order to try to get something positive out of their child’s death, is enormously powerful and very brave. Indeed, not many of us would be capable of doing that if we lost a child. I join the hon. Member in praising Jamie’s family for what they are doing; it is enormously powerful and enormously impactful.

As the hon. Member said, the foundation has been raising money; I think it has raised about £800,000 to fund defibrillators and it has now funded hundreds of them. It also has an evidence base, which was shared with me, showing the number of lives that have been saved as a result of those defibrillators. There is a conversation to be had here, and it is one that we are actively having.

I thank the Minister for allowing me to quiz her further. Can she expand on that point? Is the pushback from the National Police Chiefs’ Council, from lower levels within policing or from Government Ministers? Anyone can use a defibrillator, because it walks them through it. This is not about additional training on how to use defibrillators; it is about the availability of defibrillators where there is a crisis. Defibrillators need to be in the right place at the right time, and I cannot think of a better place than the boot of a police car.

It is not a comprehensive view across policing; there is a general concern about the role of policing versus other emergency services. We often have a wider debate within policing about the huge quantity of time that is spent responding to mental health issues, when other services should be doing that, so there is a general nervousness about that.

I am in the process of writing to police forces and having a conversation with them, so that we can answer the hon. Gentleman’s point and find out whether there is a concern when it comes to defibrillators. The Our Jay Foundation would say that, where it has engaged with police forces and given them defibrillators, that has been welcomed and it is useful. I want to find out what the concerns are, if they exist, and I am in the process of doing that.

I have said to the Our Jay Foundation—and I also say it to the hon. Member for Torbay and others here today—that of course we want every piece of first-aid equipment that could possibly save lives to be as widely available as possible. In police cars there are already first aid kits, and a lot of police officers carry tourniquets. It is not uncommon for police to conduct CPR on people relatively regularly; that has to be their job when they arrive before other emergency services.

The step to then funding defibs—since we are talking about the funding question here—and putting them into all response cars or a proportion of response cars is the next stage we will look at. There are two stages. The first is talking to police to see what they think. As we have already given the police 750 defibs, it would be interesting to understand what they have been using them for.

I know timescales are tricky, but can the Minister provide some rough timescales on the different steps? I understand that the new national police force and procurement are a bit more distant, but can she tell us what timescales she is working to, at least on the first steps she alluded to?

We will engage with policing over the next few months, so that will be done relatively quickly, and we will see what people come back with.

The national police service is not that far away. We will hopefully introduce legislation in September to set it up, and there are things that we will be thinking about, doing and working towards before we set up the establishment itself, to bring together aspects of the organisations that will become part of it. For example, BlueLight Commercial, which does a lot of the procurement now, will become part of the national police service. This is an opportunity for us to ask collectively what a good police car looks like and what kind of car we need, and to have a conversation about whether we put defibs into all police cars. There is obviously a cost, and if that money is spent on defibs it will not be spent on something else, so I want us to make the decision in the right way.

I suspect the hon. Gentleman will come back to me even if I do not do this, but I am happy to let him and the APPG know how our conversations go with policing and how we progress this work. I cannot promise that we will do what he and the Our Jay Foundation want, but I can promise that we are actively looking at it. We have already invested in defibs for policing. The Our Jay Foundation is building an evidence base from what it is doing with police forces, and we will take that very seriously.

Sitting suspended.